Young women, and societal expectations/professional strangleholds

[Guttercat]

I am an "old" nurse, and also a returning student.

Many of my classmates are just kids-- around twenty years old. I am currently retaking a couple of science classes, and my project partners in one class are young ladies pursuing a nursing degree.

A discussion I had with them in class today got me thinking. Has anything really changed in the last twenty years? I see "me" in them some twenty years ago, thinking I had to be a nurse because it was a natural progression as a CNA, I loved biological sciences and medicine, and the world (society) told me that as a young woman trying to make my own way in the world, nursing was my best chance at job security.

A couple of them are absolute whizzes at higher math, and love math/technology. One is not so keen on biological sciences, but can knock out a stats course with her eyes closed. Really? It's fairly rare to find people that can knock out stats like they're brushing their teeth. The other one thinks Algebra/calculus/trig is a cake walk, and loves and lives for anything math. Her heart is in math.

I asked them why then, are trying to get into the nursing program when their hearts lie elsewhere, and the job market for nurses is currently engineered to provide a nursing surplus?

I cannot remember being encouraged to do anything else with my knack for biological science and medicine...except for one dear anaesthesiologist in my surgical rotation who, point blank, asked me "Why don't you go to med school?"

Why didn't I? I don't know. I suppose, like them, I was a wide-eyed young woman, and unsure of my place in the world.

As I discussed the need and possibilites for the STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering Mathematics) fields, I saw little glimmers of realization in their faces.

I let them know nursing is not easy, and that they will not only have to think hard and have some degree of medical expertise , but they will be so while running mach-ten on their feet for hours on end.

Just thinkin'.

[nurseprnRN, BSN, RN]

Girls who dare to follow a different path are villified & bullied by the 'mean girls' & humiliated by their male peers... in much more dreadful ways than ever before.

One of my daughters is a software engineer (MSCS) - so I have had a very close look at this phenomenon. She had to deal with huge amounts of negative pressure in nearly every STEM course in undergrad and grad education. She deals with it on a daily basis in her (> 80% male) workplace.... she copes with it gracefully and manages to maintain her dignity when colleagues & supervisors continue to behave inappropriately. Honestly, I don't think I could have done it without resorting to violence at some point.

Interestingly, my daughter is a hard-science PhD with a specialty in the same hard-science education (concurrent MAT). She is faculty in a large university. She has always been sought-after for more than her considerable brains, work ethic, and talent because more and more departments are seeking women. Don't get me wrong-- she works very hard for her accomplishments and accolades, and has achieved a goodish amount of fame in her field. But she has found that being a woman in hard science can sometimes be an advantage.

I like to think I'm no slouch in the intellect department :). I specifically did not want to go to medical school, despite a deep and abiding interest in physiology, medicine, and surgery, precisely because I didn't want to work as hard as physicians did in the first decades of school and practice. And because my oppositional streak made me say, when people told me I was so smart that I should go to med school, that "People need smart nurses too." Still true, and I have never regretted the choice.

[Guttercat, ASN, RN]

Awesome discussion. Thanks to all for the insightful comments.

These young ladies looked at me like this was the first time someone told them there are other things to do besides nursing. I didn't encourage them away from pursuing a nursing, I merely encouraged them to look at all avenues of interest, and research, research, research.

The reason I joined their conversation is because one was discussing how she was not so sure she wanted to be a nurse. It got us talking about other opportunities, particularly in the STEM fields since they are both so mathematically talented, and, as one said, is passionate about it.

[skigirl8]

As a young woman, I went into University knowing I could take whatever I wanted. The idea that women only had certain careers to choose from wasn't even a passing thought in my brain and I hope other women of my generation and future generations NEVER will think like this either. I considered medical school but was talked out if it by other doctors and I feel like I am inadequate for med school. Not that that has anything to do with my gender, probably just a self-confidence thing.

For the record, I took geology, my coworkers are 80% male, but that is slowly changing, my graduating class was 60% female. I graduated with honours, and I really don't think my science skills and knowledge will go to waste in nursing.

[dnsonthego]

As a seasoned nurse who has advanced in the profession, I would like to offer some suggestions.

Nursing is not a field you go into for a paycheck. You will work very hard for your money. Additionally, the salary you go in does not go up as much as other professionals. In NYC, a new nurse can start out at 70K base but guess what...25 years out, your base salary is 85K. People on the outside looking in do not understand what salary compression is and how it works. Once you are in nursing, you will clearly understand.

Next, nurses has opportunities but those opportunities usually do not come with additional pay. The salary of a nurse takes into consideration having to work holidays, nights, evening and weekends, etc. Once you move away from the 24/7 of bedside nursing, you will see how the salary stagnate or decrease as convenience of working M-F 8-4 is factored into pay rates.

As for societal expectations, a lot of well meaning people will encourage young woman to go into nursing. My advice is to think about it seriously. Standing on your feet for 12 to 13 hours three to fours days a week is not fun. Caring for high acuity patients without the needed support and supplies is not fun, being on call or being expected to take call is not fun.

My advice is not to go into nursing because you love science. You need a few basic science classes up front as part of the pre-nursing sequence but nursing is not a science based field, it is a hands on human service endeavor.

If your heart and mind is telling you to go after a science field, investigate the options available to you. Be glad you have options available to you----a significant number of students in nursing are not so lucky. Having taught nursing in my career, I can not tell you the number of students who entered into nursing for the pay check believing they are too good for nursing and that the bedside care would be done by an aide. They are seriously mistaken. Don't be fooled into believing that a high pay, high prestige job awaits you once you "do you time on the floor". A lot of nurses are told that they can go into administration or informatics or NP etc. The competition for these jobs is intense, hours are brutal and you will never get paid what your worth.

Investigate and think for your self. If you are a science whiz, math wiz or whatever wiz try to think what options you have academically. Nursing education is too cumbersome, too costly and too vocationally oriented to be spent trying to find your place in the world. Additionally, being a nurse does not open doors as many believe. If you have serious ability or skill in science and math etc., try to explore what is available to you. Nursing can be a great career choice for those who want to be a nurse. If you want to do more or be more or explore more, think before going into nursing.

[Not_A_Hat_Person, RN]

I grew up in small-town New England, in a town where no one ever moved. My family moved in when I was 8, and we were never forgiven for that. When I graduated from high school, in 1995, virtually every female I knew who was going to college was studying education (even if they didn't like kids) or nursing. I dismissed those fields outright because I wanted to do something different.

What I knew of nursing was going to the local community college, getting a job at the hospital down the street from the community college, and working there until you retired or died. I desperately wanted to leave town. I might have chosen nursing then If I'd known about travel nursing.

After earning an English degree and failing to get started in both journalism and technical writing, I ended up working in a call center for 8-1/2 years. I chose to go to nursing school because I wanted to help people, there were a lot of jobs available, and it seemed to offer stability, a clear career path, and chances for advancement. I graduated in 2008, just before the nursing job market collapsed, which shows that you really can't predict the future. A field with plentiful jobs when you start a course of study can have none when you finish.

[calivianya, BSN, RN]

Honestly, I think a lot of people go into nursing because of the fabled job security and it has nothing to do with nursing being a woman's role. I never in a million years thought I wanted to be a nurse - I just got my BSN when I couldn't find a single job with my bachelor's in another field. If anything, I wanted to go to med school, but I wanted to get a job quickly and not have student loans, so med school was out. If you go to a public university, even a BSN can be pretty cheap. And hey, technically, it was a lot easier to get a job as a nurse than it was to get a job as anything else. I probably put in over 100 job applications after I got my first bachelor's with only places paying slightly more than minimum wage showing any interest. I applied for less than 30 RN positions and found something before I even graduated, and that something paid $20/hr - twice what I had made at any other job up to that point. As bad as the new graduate nurse hiring market is, and as low as new graduate nurse wages are in my part of the country, the new graduate almost anything else hiring market is worse and pays even less. Practically speaking, when it comes down to it, most people would rather be able to pay their bills, even if they are miserable at work, instead of living with 10 roommates and/or in their parents' basement because their minimum wage jobs don't pay the bills. Nursing does, if you keep your expenses reasonable.

It's an awful market for jobs of any type right now - you have to go with something that has somewhat of a chance of landing you a job afterwards.

[coughdrop.2.go, BSN, RN]

With Nursing being an increasing broadening field they may be able to still reach the STEM fields as a nurse through research and other means. Also, like some respondents stated being able to excel in a particular field doesn't mean your career field will lead you there. Everyone in my family and my teachers thought I was going to either be a Teacher or doctor because I was an excellent writer and great in science and math. I blew everyone out of the water when I said I wanted to be a Nurse and then came all the countless "You're so smart! Why don't you want to go to med school!" comments. I love being a Nurse and I occasional tutor my younger cousins in English, math, and science but nursing is still my passion and I couldn't imagine doing anything else.

I also want to add that I went in to nursing straight from high school and I didn't look in to it for the "job security" or the pay or as a 2nd career. I went to a health career fair my junior year of high school l and met the most amazing nurse who changed my whole perspective on the field. I went home, did some research on nursing and never looked back.

[Guttercat, ASN, RN]

dnsonthego,

Excellent advisement. Thank you for that post.

[Guttercat, ASN, RN]

With Nursing being an increasing broadening field they may be able to still reach the STEM fields as a nurse through research and other means. Also, like some respondents stated being able to excel in a particular field doesn't mean your career field will lead you there. Everyone in my family and my teachers thought I was going to either be a Teacher or doctor because I was an excellent writer and great in science and math. I blew everyone out of the water when I said I wanted to be a Nurse and then came all the countless "You're so smart! Why don't you want to go to med school!" comments. I love being a Nurse and I occasional tutor my younger cousins in English, math, and science but nursing is still my passion and I couldn't imagine doing anything else.

I also want to add that I went in to nursing straight from high school and I didn't look in to it for the "job security" or the pay or as a 2nd career. I went to a health career fair my junior year of high school l and met the most amazing nurse who changed my whole perspective on the field. I went home, did some research on nursing and never looked back.

Another excellent post and perspective.

There are people who know they want to be a nurse after researching the field (both male and female) regardless of gender-specific indoctrination. Nursing is incredibly challenging, and rewarding, but I still perceive there to be so many young women ushered into the field by "advisors" (including family and societal "glass ceiling" expectations) when they haven't really been encouraged to look into the full scope of their talent and drive.

It's almost as if the bar is still set lower (or, at least more restrictive in breadth) for women.

[Guttercat, ASN, RN]

Honestly, I think a lot of people go into nursing because of the fabled job security and it has nothing to do with nursing being a woman's role. I never in a million years thought I wanted to be a nurse - I just got my BSN when I couldn't find a single job with my bachelor's in another field. If anything, I wanted to go to med school, but I wanted to get a job quickly and not have student loans, so med school was out. If you go to a public university, even a BSN can be pretty cheap. And hey, technically, it was a lot easier to get a job as a nurse than it was to get a job as anything else. I probably put in over 100 job applications after I got my first bachelor's with only places paying slightly more than minimum wage showing any interest. I applied for less than 30 RN positions and found something before I even graduated, and that something paid $20/hr - twice what I had made at any other job up to that point. As bad as the new graduate nurse hiring market is, and as low as new graduate nurse wages are in my part of the country, the new graduate almost anything else hiring market is worse and pays even less. Practically speaking, when it comes down to it, most people would rather be able to pay their bills, even if they are miserable at work, instead of living with 10 roommates and/or in their parents' basement because their minimum wage jobs don't pay the bills. Nursing does, if you keep your expenses reasonable.

It's an awful market for jobs of any type right now - you have to go with something that has somewhat of a chance of landing you a job afterwards.

Interesting points.

This reminds me of the phrase "Just be grateful you have a job."

Yes, I suppose so. But Serfs, likewise, were "grateful" they could live on and farm someone else's land, and maybe-- if they worked really hard-- could eat the next day.

But this is a discussion for another day....

[JJ1994]

Im not a nurse yet. I'm about to start nursing school. I was a biology major for my first two years because I thought I wanted to go to med school. I breezed through calculus, organic chem, biochem, etc and it never occurred to me at I could do anything but STEM. Everyone is telling us (females) that we pretty much have to pursue stem if we're smart. If we don't, were halting "progress". I'm smart. I love math and science. However, I love taking care of people more than anything else. I hurt for people and something in me urges me to take care of others. I'm also very maternal and can't wait to have children of my own. I realized that being a doctor wouldn't allow me to care for people in the same way nursing would and wouldn't allow me the same flexibility as nursing. A lot of the other STEM fields also wouldn't allow me to take care of people and have some flexibility also. Not to mention, alot of them require a phd to get anywhere. I don't want to spend that much money or time.

[Altra, BSN, RN]

Just curious OP ... what do you make of young men with an aptitude for the sciences entering nursing? Do you suspect they have also been subjected to some kind of self-limiting discouragement from families, school guidance counselors, etc.?