Would You Accept Swine Flu Vaccine?

[pagandeva2000]

My facility had a town hall meeting and announced that this year, it will be mandatory for all direct care staff to get the flu shot, and that they expect the swine flu vaccine to be ready this year, around October, and that we would be mandated to take that as well to protect the patients we care for. I am not very comfortable being mandated to take anything...this would be a brand new vaccine. Why should I be the guinea pig? Thoughts?

[Scrub Monkey]

There is a big difference between saying that they could approve adjuvants, and saying that they are actually doing so. They are speaking of possible future use, not present use. It is certainly no secret that the US purchased adjuvants for emergency use for our national stockpile. But, having them available does not translate into using them without telling anybody, and without the EUA. If they have to use them, they will say so. No conspiracy will be necessary.

Hold on, nobody's talking about conspiracy here, I simply am referring to a position that the government seems to be advocating for the possible use of adjuvants, cited even from your own provided source, the REPORT TO THE PRESIDENT ON U. S. PREPARATIONS FOR 2009-H1N1 INFLUENZA http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/doc...1N1_Report.pdf

What more proof do I need, Scrub Monkey? Well, for one thing it would certainly help if I could see that the EUA was actually being used to administer a vaccine, and not a flu test. It seems very clear, at least to me, that they are talking about a diagnostic test here. Are you perhaps suggesting that this is a slippery slope, and that a test for flu will then lead to the use of adjuvants?

Precisely. Since they are currently being used in European vaccines, and have within our own military in the past (i.e. Anthrax vaccine as but one example) and now coupled with the information from even your own source, it seems as though there is now consensus that inclusion of adjuvants may be, or become, an acceptable practice. Obviously it would involve public disclosure, as there would be no way to hide it, so please let's not go off the deep end here, I'm not talking conspiracy, just bad science. However, for reasons cited in that paper, and with whatever necessity dictates at the time, could result in the use of adjuvants in the future. As for the current H1N1 vaccine, I've yet to find anything about the product insert info and a list of the included compounds in the current H1N1 vaccine being disseminated in the US, and am curious if you have. Can we at least agree that the use of adjuvants is a bad idea. We'll likely have to wait and see on whether they are, or become included, as this vaccine rolls out.

[Laidback Al]

. . .

Originally Posted by HonestRN

Additionally it is targeting a different demographic than traditional influenza i.e. it is hardest on the 5-24 year old age group. A group that generally doesn't suffer the bad outcomes that H1N1 is causing.

True, with this occurrence being suspected because "...epidemiological data supports laboratory serology studies that indicate that older people may have pre-existing immunity to the novel H1N1 flu virus. http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/surveillanceqa.htm

And for anyone wishing to comment, please cite sources, as unless you are a researcher presenting facts, opinions make weak arguments...

opinions make weak arguments... So does confusing cause and effect.

For the 2007-2008 52-week influenza tracking period, there were a total of 88 pediatric deaths in the US (children less than 18 years old). See: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/weeklyarchives2007-2008/07-08summary.htm

For the 51 weeks of the 2008-2009, 52-week influenza tracking period, a total of 128 influenza associated pediatric deaths were recorded in the US. About 72 of those children died since late April when H1N1 was first recognized as a novel influenza virus. Novel H1N1 clearly didn't go away this summer but stayed around and killed children. See this graph: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/weeklyarchives2008-2009/WhoLab38.htm

These 72 children died after the height of the typical annual period of influenza infection. See: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/fluactivity.htm

A careful inspection of the graph noted above shows that since Week 19, almost all tested samples were novel H1N1. Indeed, CDC notes for Week 38, ending September 26, "99% of all subtyped influenza A viruses being reported to CDC were 2009 influenza A (H1N1) viruses". http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/

Based on the above statistics, I think you are confused about how a cause and effect relationship work. The fact that a percentage of older people have some kind of cross protective immunity to novel H1N1 in no way causes healthy young children to die from novel H1N1 in increasing numbers over the "off season" for influenza.

Shouldn't our goal here be to figure out how to protect healthy young children from the ravages of this novel pandemic virus by what ever means necessary instead of arguing about semantics or lack of citations?

[HonestRN]

One thanks is not enough Laidback Al so here is another kudos for an excellent post!

[Scrub Monkey]

.Based on the above statistics, I think you are confused about how a cause and effect relationship work. The fact that a percentage of older people have some kind of cross protective immunity to novel H1N1 in no way causes healthy young children to die from novel H1N1 in increasing numbers over the "off season" for influenza. Shouldn't our goal here be to figure out how to protect healthy young children from the ravages of this novel pandemic virus by what ever means necessary instead of arguing about semantics or lack of citations?

Thank you too for the info and links. Having looked over these links and the information both you and HonestRN provided, I stand corrected on the point of the Novel A strain continuing to survive beyond the normal flu season period. I had previously been unaware of the continuation of the Novel A strain through the summer months, instead being made to believe from other sources that it was a southern hemisphere occurrence almost exclusively. A point which now frustrates me further about my original post concerning my employer only now requiring us to wear face masks if we decline the vaccine when available to us next month, when in effect, we should have already been wearing them given this logic that we pose some sort of risk without it. It was my employer who stated in the bulletin we received that we must wear the masks for the "duration of flu season" concerning H1N1, when it is apparently, year round.

However, my previous point was that the CDC does report that pre-existing immunity on the part of older persons may be responsible for a difference in the age distribution for this virus as compared to the seasonal flu [non-Novel A (H1N1)] experience, which if true, results in what appears proportionately (not cause and effect) to be a higher degree of pediatric reported cases as compared to that of the older population. http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/surveillanceqa.htm. But as I sated previously, I stand corrected, this virus is clearly killing a portion of those affected even during the traditional flu "off season."

But getting back to my central point, do 302 fatalities out of 43,771 reported H1N1 cases as of 10/04/09 as compared to the CDC's statement of roughly 36,000 fatalities a year from seasonal flu, warrant the rush to vaccinate our youngest and most vulnerable population with a vaccine that has been rushed into production, and may at some point be imbued with potentially dangerous adjuvants to keep up with demand and to streamline cost?

I'm frustrated too as there clearly are no simple answers. With the roll out of this new vaccine, I suppose we'll simply have to wait and see and hope that its effect is only positive and its becoming the panacea we all hope it to be.

[CrunchRN, ADN, RN]

You know what is strange?

We have pages and pages of debate and great links and well thought out discussions on this subject and nobody knows if it will become more virulent or just stay the way it is right now, or just quietly dissipate. Nobody really has a clue!

While I think the vaccine is a better idea than not at this point, I also think the hospitals are overreacting based on what is happening now. Truly, unless they subject the public and all employees, and doctors, and visitors too the hospital to the same requirements then in it does not seem like it is an effective technique.

I enjoy everyone's insight and contributions, and especially Indigo girl for the many threads and discussions she has contributed.

[HonestRN]

But getting back to my central point, do 302 fatalities out of 43,771 reported H1N1 cases as of 10/04/09 as compared to the CDC's statement of roughly 36,000 fatalities a year from seasonal flu, warrant the rush to vaccinate our youngest and most vulnerable population with a vaccine that has been rushed into production, and may at some point be imbued with potentially dangerous adjuvants to keep up with demand and to streamline cost?

I'm frustrated too as there clearly are no simple answers. With the roll out of this new vaccine, I suppose we'll simply have to wait and see and hope that its effect is only positive and its becoming the panacea we all hope it to be.

With these kinds of statistics during "off season" the following is enough for me to get the vaccine for myself and my children. It's a risk/benefit analysis each person has to make for themselves and their children

One quarter of Americans sick enough to be hospitalized with swine flu last spring wound up needing intensive care and 7 percent of them died, the first such study of the early months of the global epidemic suggests.

That's a little higher than with ordinary seasonal flu, several experts said.

What is striking and unusual is that children and teens accounted for nearly half of the hospitalized cases, including many who were previously healthy. The study did not give a breakdown of deaths by age.

"Contrary to the perception among many people that this influenza, novel H1N1, is mild, these data vividly demonstrate that influenza can make you very, very ill," said Dr. William Schaffner, a Vanderbilt University flu expert and spokesman for the Infectious Diseases Society of America.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gDGKqIBKibLL1bbMasjsDRKvd7gAD9B76B201

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A study of people who became seriously ill and died with the new pandemic swine flu confirms it is hitting a younger population than the seasonal flu and causes often different symptoms.

The study of 272 patients sick enough to be hospitalized showed about 40 percent had diarrhea and vomiting -- usually rare with seasonal flu -- and confirmed that quick treatment with antivirals could save lives.

Dr. Seema Jain of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, who led the study, said the findings had informed the CDC's advice on who should worry about the new H1N1 virus and when to get treatment.

"Of the 272 patients we studied, 25 percent were admitted to an intensive care unit and 7 percent died," Jain's team wrote in the report, published in the New England Journal of Medicine.

They said 45 percent were children under 18, just 5 percent were over 65 and 73 percent had at least one underlying condition such as asthma, diabetes, heart disease and pregnancy.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5975YC20091008

[Lynn07]

I agree with the previous poster. Not only do I not want to be a guinea pig, I am planning on getting pregnant soon and do not want the vaccine in my system not knowing what it may do. We have to go before one of the MD's at the hospital I work at and tell why we are declining.

[DolceVita, ADN, BSN, RN]

I will, yes. Five reasons:

1) I have a mother on immune system lowering drugs

2) I have a small niece and nephew that I look after often

3) I have had ARDS and nearly died -- have resulting lung damage -- don't wish to repeat it

4) I am in NS and my colleagues at school aren't exactly the best at covering their coughs/sneezes etc. nor do they seem to mind wiping post cough hands onto items in the skills lab or computer room (you'd think they would have explained this to nursing students but nope). There are already many confirmed cases of H1N1 at my college.

5) I have had the flu and it was the pits. I was sick as a pig for days and then had even more days when I was trying to recover. Seriously, once you have had flu you will never mix it up with a cold again.

Of course, there are a host of other reasons -- like I am going to clinical shortly and neither wish to carry nor contract any kind of flu if I can help it. One clinical site insists on flu vaccination or masks.

If you were going to get the vaccination but now won't, simply because an employer is trying to insist -- I think you need to reconsider your motives for not getting it. My grandmother would have called that "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

By the way, I am not doing this blindly. I have spent considerable personal time and effort looking at scientific resources about this. My scientific resources don't include Bill Maher, Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck :0

.

[tewdles, RN]

LOL @ DolceVita's re: Bill Maher, Rush Limbaugh, and Glen Beck being scientific resources for ANYONE.

[DolceVita, ADN, BSN, RN]

OK I'll bite...where is this list of medical/scientific professionals who have said they won't get the H1N1 vaccine? I'd really like to see it. Hopefully, t will give their rationale -- which I am very interested in.

Can someone give me a link please.

Ta very much.

[GadgetRN71, ASN, RN]

I have to admit, I sometimes don't get how some people are so afraid of vaccines. I grew up in the 70's and 80's and there was no thought about Thirmosol causing problems. It was time for a shot so you got one. Also, I don't think I knew one kid that had a peanut allergy,especially not one that needed "peanut free schools" but that's OT. I just think these days, there are way more nervous nellies.

I bet if you compared death rates of people who had a bad reaction to flu vaccine to the deaths from flu, the flu deaths number would be way higher. My cousins family participated in a research study-all 4 of them got the swine flu vaccine and they're all still kicking..the mom, the dad, the 10 year old and the 8 year old. Plus, they got paid $500 bucks apiece. Sweet! I should see if they're still taking people. My hospital doesn't have the H1N1 vaccine yet..

[ineedcoffee]

For the person above asking to see an example of a medical/science preofessional stating why he won't get the swine flu vaccine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1z7KSEnyxw