Why are so many nurses against unions?

[Icunicenurse]

I really don't understand. I am a newish nurse that landed my "dream job" in the icu. My hospital is the biggest and best in the area and we are currently on a journey to magnet. I feel like I was lied to about how this would help nurses and we would be supported and taken care of.

In my icu we have a very high acuity. We are constantly short staffed and tripled. 1:1 for ccrt pts is advertised but never actually happens!

I have seen a patient self extubate during the holy interdisciplinary rounds due to that nurse being tripled and spread out across the unit. None of the bosses said any thing and just went on to round on the next patient.

The majority of our assistants will not help unless asked and it's like pulling teeth just to get them to help with a blood sugar check. Often they are sitting on their cellphones or just catching up on gossip. But since they have worked there a long time it is widely accepted by the staff.

We have are losing staff nurses left and right.

I have been talked down to by our surgeons and blatantly disrespected on more than one occasion for trying to help a patient but not enough to be considered abusive so that I could report it. Once, I calmly asked a doc to update the close family members of a dying patient at their request. Since a distant family had been updated, the doctor was visibly offended and proceeded to call my charge nurse and say "I got in her face" which was completely false. Luckily the charge was within ear shot and heard everything. This was swept under the rug.

During my new nurse orientation the nursing instructor preached against unions especially since we were going magnet and would have so many benefits.

I feel like a strong nurse union could solve many of our problems and help our patient care. But the majority of nurses I have talked to are completely against it. I can't understand this for the life of me.

Sadly, my dream job has turned to hell. I love my sick patients and family but sick of being overworked, tripled, never even getting a lunch break, all while being talked down to and humiliated by the Dr.s that see me as a stupid new nurse.

[egg122 NP, MSN, APRN]

On 8/20/2019 at 10:14 AM, mene19 said:

At my former job, my union rep and I did not see eye to eye on many things. We had intelligent discussions and grew to respect each other immensely, even when we clashed in frustration.

Examples of why I don't like unions for nurses:

1. Unions defend rules against pragmatics. Immediately after hurricane Sandy, I was assigned to help open an additional telemetry unit for the influx of patients needing monitoring. The hospital space and staff were stretched to the max. While transporting a patient from the ER to the new unit, the union rep tried to stop me; apparently it was not in my job description to push a bed. "It sets a precedent," she said. "It's about the patient, and It's an emergency situation." I replied, and continued until all 8 patients were transferred.

2. They protect dangerous workers, no matter how they deny/justify. Long term nurses who could no longer safely function in their position kept their places because of the union, even when these nurses were incompetent, physically unable to perform the work, or both. If a nurse has difficulty getting up from a chair, they don't belong in the ICU.

3. Unions have devolved into gangs: mandating who members vote for, bullying, intimidating. In the early 90's, 1199 went on strike in Philadelphia. At the Hospital of the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine (no longer open), union workers physically assaulted Dr.'s, vandalized lab equipment, and prevented loved ones from seeing their families. Unions forget they have a right to PEACEFULLY assemble. This does not mean blocking streets, denying others access to public places, and committing crimes.

I'll never forget what I saw in Philadelphia and will never support a union again.

Agreed- my experience with 1199 was negative as well.

[jinct]

3 hours ago, HazelLPN said:

Absolute nonsense.

Not really, but maybe if you elaborate you might be able to help us understand why you think it is nonsense. Fact is, unions are on sharp decline and probably would already be a thing of the past if it weren't for forced participation. Private sector membership was around 21% in 1983, 11% in 2011, and 6% today. And the vast majority of union members didn't vote to be in a union.

[NICU Guy, BSN, RN]

On 2/6/2019 at 3:14 PM, HomeBound said:

Anybody who says that they prefer to work under fear of termination if they clock in 3 minutes past the hour but not more than 4 minutes prior to the hour

I have never had the fear of being terminated for clocking in too early or using too many glucostrips.

On 2/6/2019 at 3:14 PM, HomeBound said:

denied their raise because they had taken FMLA

I have never taken FLMA, but most of my coworkers have taken maternity leave and no one has complained about their raise. In fact, the hospital is now giving an additional 4 weeks paid maternity leave before the employee has to use their sick time.

On 2/6/2019 at 3:14 PM, HomeBound said:

Nobody in their right mind would resist having lunches and breaks enforced to the point that hospitals will be FINED if they don't allow you to take a break.

I have never been forced to work through my breaks and lunches. There have been times where I took a late lunch due to admitting a very sick patient around lunch time that took a long time to stabilize, but that was my own choice not management.

Are there places where management are tyrannical? Yes, I am sure there are and unions may help those employees, but unions have no purpose for employees that are treated fairly by their employers.

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

On 9/2/2019 at 5:53 AM, NICU Guy said:

I have never had the fear of being terminated for clocking in too early or using too many glucostrips.

I have never taken FLMA, but most of my coworkers have taken maternity leave and no one has complained about their raise. In fact, the hospital is now giving an additional 4 weeks paid maternity leave before the employee has to use their sick time.

I have never been forced to work through my breaks and lunches. There have been times where I took a late lunch due to admitting a very sick patient around lunch time that took a long time to stabilize, but that was my own choice not management.

Are there places where management are tyrannical? Yes, I am sure there are and unions may help those employees, but unions have no purpose for employees that are treated fairly by their employers.

Part of the union process is "voting" for the union by employees. Thus, even those who do not have unions benefit from unions because "as a rule" hospital administration doesn't want unions and try to keep employees happy enough to not "become unionized". Without the intrinsic pressure of impending unionization it is less likely that hospitals would do this because typically employee friendly policies cost money and many hospitals feel their first priority is to their stock holders (or management bonuses which are often tied to stock performance). I work for an HCA hospital (the largest private hospital chain in the United States) and can tell you that all of the things that don't happen at your facility have either happened in the past or are attempted today (and are opposed, usually successfully by our union). Also, if you live in certain areas of the country like Fl, Ms, Alabama, Louisiana, Ark, Ga to name but a few states, your work experience without a union is likely to be much worse.

[ArmyRntoMD, BSN, RN]

Because I’m not going to have someone tell me if I can or can’t work.

[pnxyooj, RN]

Hi, I'm still a pretty new nurse. The hospital I worked at is a union but it seems to be highly dislike by management. A lot of the RNs are new due to high turnovers.

I believe in a union for nurses but with no state or federal regulations, they can only do so much. I encouraged others to join but a lot of them are very afraid of getting on management's bad side and refused to join??

I don't understand the entire politics behind it but I have heard management approaching me about how bad the union is. Why are so many so reluctant to join??

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

They fear “silent” discrimination by management. The tools of the Dark Side are vast.

[Rionoir, ADN, RN]

8 hours ago, myoglobin said:

They fear “silent” discrimination by management. The tools of the Dark Side are vast.

I am 43 and nursing is a third career for me. I have worked all over the world and in a variety of fields, basically checking off my bucket list of careers lol. The hospital I decided to work at is non-Union, non-profit and a long time Magnet hospital - I can honestly say the relationship between management and the nursing staff is amazing and unlike any I’ve seen in any other industry. I truly feel sorry for those of you who live in areas where well-run hospitals are a rarity and where nurses feel the need to unionize to be treated fairly, but I can assure you those hospitals are out there. Some people just need the courage to pack up their stuff and go find them.

[ORDC]

Unions protect the lazy, incompetent and stupid. Why would I want to be associated with that?! Besides, having an antagonistic relationship with your employer is vile and unhealthy. If a hospital is supposedly poorly staff or whatever, leave the job. Go to one where you want to be there. Keep doing that till you go where you have a friendly, mutually productive and respectful relationship with your employer.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

15 hours ago, ORDC said:

Unions protect the lazy, incompetent and stupid. Why would I want to be associated with that?! Besides, having an antagonistic relationship with your employer is vile and unhealthy. If a hospital is supposedly poorly staff or whatever, leave the job. Go to one where you want to be there. Keep doing that till you go where you have a friendly, mutually productive and respectful relationship with your employer.

That's really an ignorant stereotype. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. Things are changing with unions for sure. They aren't the same kind of profession they used to me. But I have worked in union and non-union hospitals (as a non-hospital employee) and union hospitals had less turnover and more older employees.

[JohnyPapr]

There are pros and cons to union and non-union. I worked for both. Union all the way for the benefits, pay raises, and patient ratios. Now with that being said not all unions are equal. Some unions have more clout and can negotiate better contracts due to the leadership. I have seen a seasoned worker with no more PTO or sick leave call in every week for two months due to child's health. The union stepped and management only suspended the employee for a month with no pay. That's really generous. Any other job they would be fired.

The cons is once you pass probation you have to assault someone to get fired. You have old nurses that have no business being on the floor anymore and should retire but are greedy and still working and they are lazy asking everyone to do their duties. But they can't get fired because they are protected by the union. As long as they do the bare minimum they are protected.

There are only two pros of non-union I experienced was when someone is lazy or a cancer to a unit's morale, if enough workers complain about person, the director will start a "firing campaign" on worker. Every complaint will be logged and director will tell everyone to take note of time and date when worker clocked in late, came back from lunch late, refused to help, or broke any policy.

The other pro is if you have leverage like a lot of experience, know how to sell yourself (name the places you worked, name drop other hospitals that called you and are considering), and did your research and know the director of that unit is hurting for nurses, you can negotiate your salary higher than the normal pay scale for the position during the interview. All they need to do is get it approved by HR. With union you have hard pay scales based on experience.

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

On 4/28/2020 at 5:35 PM, JohnyPapr said:

There are pros and cons to union and non-union. I worked for both. Union all the way for the benefits, pay raises, and patient ratios. Now with that being said not all unions are equal. Some unions have more clout and can negotiate better contracts due to the leadership. I have seen a seasoned worker with no more PTO or sick leave call in every week for two months due to child's health. The union stepped and management only suspended the employee for a month with no pay. That's really generous. Any other job they would be fired.

The cons is once you pass probation you have to assault someone to get fired. You have old nurses that have no business being on the floor anymore and should retire but are greedy and still working and they are lazy asking everyone to do their duties. But they can't get fired because they are protected by the union. As long as they do the bare minimum they are protected.

There are only two pros of non-union I experienced was when someone is lazy or a cancer to a unit's morale, if enough workers complain about person, the director will start a "firing campaign" on worker. Every complaint will be logged and director will tell everyone to take note of time and date when worker clocked in late, came back from lunch late, refused to help, or broke any policy.

The other pro is if you have leverage like a lot of experience, know how to sell yourself (name the places you worked, name drop other hospitals that called you and are considering), and did your research and know the director of that unit is hurting for nurses, you can negotiate your salary higher than the normal pay scale for the position during the interview. All they need to do is get it approved by HR. With union you have hard pay scales based on experience.

In the scheme of things many more good nurses are treated poorly in non union facilities than bad nurses are sheltered in unionized hospitals. Also, I believe standardized pay scales reduce income disparity for women and minorities.