Why are so many nurses against unions?

[Icunicenurse]

I really don't understand. I am a newish nurse that landed my "dream job" in the icu. My hospital is the biggest and best in the area and we are currently on a journey to magnet. I feel like I was lied to about how this would help nurses and we would be supported and taken care of.

In my icu we have a very high acuity. We are constantly short staffed and tripled. 1:1 for ccrt pts is advertised but never actually happens!

I have seen a patient self extubate during the holy interdisciplinary rounds due to that nurse being tripled and spread out across the unit. None of the bosses said any thing and just went on to round on the next patient.

The majority of our assistants will not help unless asked and it's like pulling teeth just to get them to help with a blood sugar check. Often they are sitting on their cellphones or just catching up on gossip. But since they have worked there a long time it is widely accepted by the staff.

We have are losing staff nurses left and right.

I have been talked down to by our surgeons and blatantly disrespected on more than one occasion for trying to help a patient but not enough to be considered abusive so that I could report it. Once, I calmly asked a doc to update the close family members of a dying patient at their request. Since a distant family had been updated, the doctor was visibly offended and proceeded to call my charge nurse and say "I got in her face" which was completely false. Luckily the charge was within ear shot and heard everything. This was swept under the rug.

During my new nurse orientation the nursing instructor preached against unions especially since we were going magnet and would have so many benefits.

I feel like a strong nurse union could solve many of our problems and help our patient care. But the majority of nurses I have talked to are completely against it. I can't understand this for the life of me.

Sadly, my dream job has turned to hell. I love my sick patients and family but sick of being overworked, tripled, never even getting a lunch break, all while being talked down to and humiliated by the Dr.s that see me as a stupid new nurse.

[Rionoir, ADN, RN]

On 8/1/2019 at 9:56 AM, TitaniumPlates said:

But you know everything about the working conditions for nurses because you have been one for so very long. I think you absolutely should never, ever work in a high paying, hour lunch guaranteed, guaranteed vacation time, guaranteed breaks, guaranteed ratio hospital.

Because unions are evil.

Agree with the last statement. Never said any of the rest. ?

[FolksBtrippin, BSN, RN]

On 7/28/2019 at 12:17 PM, tacticool said:

Do you realize what you're saying? You're actually agreeing with me. Whilst there was a range, I could negotiate in that range and not be forced to accept what they initially offered. A union goes in to negotiate, and there is a limit to which the corporation will set as a maximum. Synonymous with range.

Girl, please. $27 an hour is an abysmal rate for inpatient nursing with experience. That is horrible. If you had a union, your wages would be much higher. My new grad wage including my orientation was 31.99 base. Add shift differentials, charge pay, incentive pay, raises every 6 months, clinical ladder bonus annually which was $5,000 if you had a BSN and put in almost no effort. Plus 8 hours of PTO every 2 weeks and the manager cannot refuse your PTO requests when you have given adequate notice. You can't be floated outside of your specialty, rules for staff ratios, preceptor pay, and when your manager decides to be a piece of slag (which they do anyway) you are protected from being unfairly disciplined or fired. Union in a union supported state.

[jinct]

On 8/4/2019 at 3:30 PM, FolksBtrippin said:

Girl, please. $27 an hour is an abysmal rate for inpatient nursing with experience. That is horrible. If you had a union, your wages would be much higher. My new grad wage including my orientation was 31.99 base. Add shift differentials, charge pay, incentive pay, raises every 6 months, clinical ladder bonus annually which was $5,000 if you had a BSN and put in almost no effort. Plus 8 hours of PTO every 2 weeks and the manager cannot refuse your PTO requests when you have given adequate notice. You can't be floated outside of your specialty, rules for staff ratios, preceptor pay, and when your manager decides to be a piece of slag (which they do anyway) you are protected from being unfairly disciplined or fired. Union in a union supported state.

Pay depends very much on where in the country you live. Some states have starting pay in the low 20s. Others are over 40. You can't really compare a job, union or not, in new york with one in utah.

[FolksBtrippin, BSN, RN]

On 8/4/2019 at 4:06 PM, jinct said:

Pay depends very much on where in the country you live. Some states have starting pay in the low 20s. Others are over 40. You can't really compare a job, union or not, in new york with one in utah.

This is true, but within my union supported state, as I have stated over and again you get better working conditions and better wages at the union hospitals. And there is no way you could have negotiated those working conditions into your contract by yourself. Literally no way.

PS you do NOT want to work in a "right to work" state! Unions do not have the same power there that they do here.

[TitaniumPlates]

On 8/4/2019 at 4:06 PM, jinct said:

Pay depends very much on where in the country you live. Some states have starting pay in the low 20s. Others are over 40. You can't really compare a job, union or not, in new york with one in utah.

FolksBTrippin is talking about UNION vs. NONUNION.

As far as I know, there are no nursing unions in Utah---which is precisely what our point about having a union is all about.

You're saying low starting rates---and take a good hard look at where those low starting rates are---non union states and faclities.

The "upper 40's" starting rates are either in union shops or are in high cost of living areas. Most of California is union. So is Oregon. And Washington state. And New York. And Massachusetts.

Low, crap paying, no lunch, no breaks, PTO denied, PTO mixed with sick time (and you get fired for actually taking your sick time), no reimbursements, no tuition help, floating constantly, no incentive pay for precepting or nights/weekends?

Try places like North Carolina. Pennsylvania. Ohio. Any of the "flyover" states.

Go to Texas where they use vendor management systems and some jerk who has a bad day and doesn't like your supposed attitude can red flag you so you never work for any hospital system in that state again.

How about going to live in subzero places with absolutely nothing to offer as something to do--like North Dakota or maybe Detroit---and they still offer you low 20's to start?

No unions there. That's why.

But guys that know everything about nursing and nursing unions *coughbarelystudentough* seem to think that they'll just "move on over across the street" if they're denied lunches or PTO. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA. Yeah. Right.

I am doubting a certain someone's ability to actually graduate nursing school let alone go into one of these "non union shops because they're the devil" and get anything even resembling respect. But then...people like this guy don't ever actually admit they're wrong---they're the ones that are the malcontents in the unit and job hop just never getting it that if they were unionized---they'd have a decent job to go to. Again...this guy will deserve everything he gets--he clearly doesn't read and comprehend what is being said on this board and many others about the state of nursing without protections.

Ratios are the biggest boon of union shops. I for one am not ever going to take it from management that "2 nurses called off and you guys have to split 20 patients apiece until we manage to get someone to answer the phone."--in a level 1 trauma ER---and manager never intends on "getting someone to answer the phone". Unions put a hard stop to that nonsense. You cover the shifts....or you close the beds. Pick one.

I like it that some of these "nurses" are against unions. They can go and staff the crap hospitals that abuse the staff---I guess someone's got to do it. The smart ones go and get the protection of the unions so that they have decent pay, workplace environment and work/life balance.

[Rionoir, ADN, RN]

“Low, crap paying, no lunch, no breaks, PTO denied, PTO mixed with sick time (and you get fired for actually taking your sick time), no reimbursements, no tuition help, floating constantly, no incentive pay for precepting or nights/weekends?”

Did the union feed you all this or are you just winging it now? ? Weekend incentive at my *** non union hospital is $11 extra. Tuition reimbursement $8000/year. When PTO became a thing 20 years ago it was always vacation/holidays/sick time rolled into one - that’s why it’s called PTO. Typical that unions would demand PTO on top of their PTO. Literally all of this is just nonsense I’ve had many conversations with coworkers about all of this.

Maybe what some of you really need isn’t a union as much as it is to just move.

[guest974915]

On 8/5/2019 at 8:00 AM, tacticool said:

Bravo!

On 8/5/2019 at 7:53 AM, Rionoir said:

“Low, crap paying, no lunch, no breaks, PTO denied, PTO mixed with sick time (and you get fired for actually taking your sick time), no reimbursements, no tuition help, floating constantly, no incentive pay for precepting or nights/weekends?”

Did the union feed you all this or are you just winging it now? ? Weekend incentive at my *** non union hospital is $11 extra. Tuition reimbursement $8000/year. When PTO became a thing 20 years ago it was always vacation/holidays/sick time rolled into one - that’s why it’s called PTO. Typical that unions would demand PTO on top of their PTO. Literally all of this is just nonsense I’ve had many conversations with coworkers about all of this.

Maybe what some of you really need isn’t a union as much as it is to just move.

What Titanium describes is accurate. I've been actively employed as a RN for almost 30 years and as a travel nurse, worked at major hospitals all across the US. Your hospital is definitely one of the few exceptions, but it is in no way the norm and representative. In my career, I have witnessed a gradual but steady and disturbing erosion of staff benefits over the years-this is one of the easiest way for hospitals to balance the books. If you do have all these perks today, great, but what guarantee(s) do you have that you will have them tomorrow?. Experienced nurses in my union shop make over $50/hr, have protected rights, excellent insurance, and a pension- labor contract assures that these benefits continue into the future.

[jinct]

I'm not arguing against unions. My comment was just that pay varies widely across the country, regardless of whether or not a union is in place, because of job markets and the cost of living. For the poster to scoff at $27/hr because she makes $40 is just kind of ignorant. That's all.

For the record, I'm part of a union in a CT hospital. The pay is good, no doubt, and better than non-union. However, I usually have 6-8 patients (in the ER), I RARELY get a meal break because there is never coverage, and the union is completely unresponsive when there is a problem. But I also realize that all unions, like people, are different.

[Rionoir, ADN, RN]

I agree that unions are a necessity for some, but I'd also rather avoid them if I can (and fortunately I can). I have no guarantee per se that conditions will stay the same, but as I've said repeatedly, my area is swimming in great hospitals and they simply have to compete with each other if they want to have enough staff choosing them.

My floor just finished installing new ceiling lifts in every single room. No union made them do that. I'm not saying they did it 100% because they wanted to be nice, but they did it and they didn't have to. The facilities I work at are amazing. I have talked to many others on my floor and the only real complaints I've heard are that not all the nurses love each other lol. ?‍♂️ I'm serious when I say I think some people here just need to move - because there actually are places you can work where employees are appreciated.

[TitaniumPlates]

On 8/5/2019 at 11:21 AM, Rionoir said:

I agree that unions are a necessity for some, but I'd also rather avoid them if I can (and fortunately I can). I have no guarantee per se that conditions will stay the same, but as I've said repeatedly, my area is swimming in great hospitals and they simply have to compete with each other if they want to have enough staff choosing them.

My floor just finished installing new ceiling lifts in every single room. No union made them do that. I'm not saying they did it 100% because they wanted to be nice, but they did it and they didn't have to. The facilities I work at are amazing. I have talked to many others on my floor and the only real complaints I've heard are that not all the nurses love each other lol. ?‍♂️ I'm serious when I say I think some people here just need to move - because there actually are places you can work where employees are appreciated.

Lol.

The ceiling lifts were installed because one too many nurses or support staff were filing workers comp claims.

Again. You aren't a nurse. You haven't spent 15 years ot 40 years being one. You have no idea what you are even talking about.

I trained in a non union level 1 trauma. I worked many years in union. I worked for union shops in my prior career. I know from real nursing experience that the only places I ever saw make concessions....Like hour lunches that cannot be interrupted, no mixing of pto and sick time (why you think this is normal is because have never had this perk).

Have you actually read and comprehended that I was a travel nurse? I have been employed all over this country and in more hospitals...And have a baseline to compare..

And you? How many hospitals have you been employed by as a registered nurse? Just tell me that and let me see how my experiences stack up to your vast nursing resume.

The only person winging anything is someone with no nursing experience claiming that they know anything about conditions across the country as a nurse.

What I smell is a plant. Someone who will keep the argument going with absolutely no proof of their claim or nursing experiences to back it up.

I have proof. I worked these places and there is a black and white breakdown given here and so many other places that show the benefits of having unions.

As for ct nurse with ratios out of whack. That is not a union thing. That is a nursing thing. Have you actually done the research and education on how to pass nurse ratios in a facility or state? You should and if you have more than a few union shops in your state...You can organize legislation to be brought to institute ratios.

See what happened in Massachusetts recently. Educate yourself on ratios and the number of injuries, burnout, medication errors, etc.

But renonoob has the answers. His 8k a year tuition reimbursement is the equivalent of my 4:1 max ratio. His $11/hr weekend night diff is the equivalent of my 13 days of sick, 24 days of pto and double time on holidays. Oh and my weekend night shift diff? 35% of my $52/hr basepay.

And every nurse who starts at my hospital is offered that same diff. Those same pto and sick hour accrual. That same double time pay on holidays. Plus 5k a year tuition. Plus scholarships to pay for advancement into np or crna completely paid for for a return commitment on what they gave me.

We had ceiling lifts 10 years ago. In ever room as well as in diagnostic imaging and the er.

There is no comparison to my experience vs yours noob. None. You are talking out of your behind and have absolutely no experience to back it up.

People here aren't dumb. Your arguments are falling on the side of nonsensical and very close to the anti union trollish behavior that every so often shows up here to disrupt conversation and debate.

Especially when you say you aren't even a nurse. Something we could check and something that would get you some trouble if you claim.

Like I said. If you are actually a nursing student and if you actually ever graduate....

Please stay at your non union hospital. Stay with your all nights and weekends so you get that awesome diff. Stay with the no ratios. Stay with the no guaranteed breaks. Stay with your 2 whole weeks of sick and pto.

Please. I am begging you. Please stay there. I would never want you in my union shop taking advantage of the perks and high pay.

Lol.

[Guest957596]

Wow. Great back and forth on this one. I would ask what state/area you're in with such great union bennies so I could look at cost-of-living expenses, just for comparison.

[jinct]

I definitely envy your $20/hr night weekend differential. My union contract provides the same diff that the hospital provides all employees, but it's only 7.50 for nights plus 4 for weekends. Other than that, not much else to say. I am union. Our ratios stink. Rarely get breaks. Mixed sick and pto time. Unresponsive to the issues. But never miss taking the dues out of my paycheck...

Like I said, all unions are different, I suppose. But there's a reason that union membership is on a steep decline.