Where are the men?

goingCOASTAL · Aug 4, 2003

Originally posted by cheerfuldoer
Men...in general...are intimidated by women in positions of power. It is only human nature for the male species to have a drive within them that dominates and protects their territory around them. Having a woman dominate and control them is NOT the design of men. For those of you who believe in God, we know this to be true. For those of you who do not believe in God...you may or may not get the gest of what I'm saying.

In fields that are predominantly "female controlled", can we blame men for running the other way....especially if being controlled by women means a man has to cowtow to stupid demands and abuse that nurses (mostly women) love to bestow on each other

Hmmm. Maybe, maybe not. I'm a guy, and everything I HATE about my job has nothing to do with working with women and has everything to do with how nursing in general is perceived by the HC industry, how expectations far exceed the resources we are given to work with, and how we as workers are generally treated with the same respect as are disposable sanitary napkins.

Yes, it is a "female" dominated field, and perhaps men leave the profession more because they are culturally less inclined to tolerate a lot of crap nurses have to deal with generally because of our professions history, etc. Unfortunately, men have traditionally had more options when it comes to work, so when it comes down to the chemical plant job with great pay and benefits versus less pay, bad attitudes, and being treated like an idiot slave, some men will pass on it, or leave once they see the truth.

I must say, I was greatly disappointed coming out of nursing school with the expectation that I would be an equal partner in the healthcare team, and discovering that I was expected to do nothing more than obey the physicians orders and administration's demands. The only thing I often do that actually makes me feel like what I was trained to do is observing for clinical changes. However, as a hospital nurse for most of my 8 years, I often feel powerless to make an impact on patient outcomes other than what I can "suggest" to the decision makers in healthcare (physicians/hospital administration). That, and being made to feel like an easily replaceable commodity are high anxiety points for me, and create the frequent urge to change professions.

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · Aug 4, 2003

Originally posted by CougRN
Umm hardly. I'm not intimidated by women in the least bit especially those above me. Men leave the profession because they don't like being looked at like subserviant workers. Men leave because of the look people give them when they say they are a nurse. Only some of us are strong enough to get past that. Plus men want a career that they can support a family with, nursing isn't that career.

But the whole "female controlled" aspect is a complete myth as to why men would leave the profession. A professional can work for anyone if they are a true professional. Men also leave the field of nursing because it is so unorganized and doesn't show any signs of becoming an organized profession with any power in the near future. Mostly because of the all the infighting between nurses and their reluctance to join their organizations and take an active part in the future of nursing.

Good post.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Aug 4, 2003

Originally posted by Geeg
I don't think we need to be concerned with getting more men into the profession. They don't stay at the bedside, where most of the abuse takes place, for very long. Plus, I think they are given an unfair advantage when they compete against females for management positons, soley due to gender.

Agree and disagree. I agree men don't stay at the bedside long, unless it is critical care, the ER or OR.

But I haven't seen unfair promotions in my experience. In fact in our 400 bed hospital we have two managers who are male. All the nursing directors, the recruiter, the information technology nursing manager, the vice president, all the educators, even the CEO (who isn't a nurse) are all female. Perhaps this is due to the CEO being female, but other than unit managers there are no males in the higher up management of nursing.

In practically all the other departments Environmental Services, Security, Accounting and Finance, on and on the managers and heads of departments are male (except for Human Resources).

Is my hospital the exception?

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Aug 4, 2003

Im here

Peeps Mcarthur · Aug 4, 2003

I'll throw in here,

I believe that nursing curicculum sows the seed and plants the irrevocable idea that nursing is gender specific. Societal expectations notwithstanding, I believe that nursing schools use female-friendly curicculums to keep thier pass rates up(since most students are female) and the males are alienated from the profession from the first day on.

I would like to give a postmortem analysis on how it felt to sit in such a nursing program as a male.

I wanted to seek out a studygroup from the first day, but the conversations after class were not about the subject matter on that day and I had a very difficult time "working the room" in seeking out the most dedicated students.

Same thing the next class, and on, and on, and on.

If you were not prepared to discuss children,hairstyle,recipies.........blah,blah,blah..........you were NOT getting in any study groups. Why would they invite you to studygroup if you were male? After all, you were strangely silent after class. You stood around several groups but failed to enter any of the lively conversations when the other students were talking thier heads off! There must be something wrong with you.

From day one, the male does not socially fit into any groups.

As the days wear on in my solitude I am trying to understand why the lectures seem to focus on what patients might be thinking,what nurses might and should think,what to communicate about what you think to patients and other nurses. As if you didn't feel like the Stuart Smalley poster child yet, instead of actual objective data you get, how thier ethnicity,age,gender,pathology,childhood might affect prognosis(although such a word as prognisis would never be used).

Then you are invited to form "nursing diagnosis" on the basis of this psychosocial heaping spoonful of motherly love.

Now your thinking that you may spend the rest of any nursing career as a product of this. The curicculum is most definitely grounded in non-male domains.

Talking about your feelings for a given purpose:

Males don't generally use this information for anything. We are not skilled at this. It is not in our nature.

What is the psychosocial diagnosis? seems to be the subject of debate in every conversation that has to do with nursing. You stand with your hands together trying to look interested waiting.........for some clue as to how this can be interesting to them, just as you did when they talked about kids, hair, shoes, boyfriends, nails......................

Finally, one day, they say "hey, you're good at all this A&P stuff, tell me................A sudden feeling of exhilleration floods over you What is that stuff that makes your nails harder?"......"What do you mean, a pathology, or a nutrient that may be lacking?" The group is visibly uncomfortable with my direct approach. Someone else guesses at the answer and debate ensues.......................nobody notices that I have not answered.

Every exam that I take feels the same way. Indirect, indecisive, test questions, about psychosocial poop.

I walk away.............................and I keep walking.

To the nursing office. In my direct analysis of all objective data I give up my seat after posting a "B" grade for the semester. My clinical instructor thinks I'm great and crinkles her brow when I say I won't be back.

The nursing staff is perplexed as to why I would not continue.

It's difficult to explain without offending them, so in all my maleness I gladly suppress what I'm feeling and tell them "it's just not for me"

This is sort of an amusing postscript to this story...................

When I used to tell people that I was a nursing student they would say "oh that's great! We need more nurses." sometimes they would offer "Isn't it tough being a male in that profession?"

The general public seems to recognize that. I wonder why nursing schools don't.

Now I tell them that I'm going to be a physician assistant.

"Do you need a degree for that?"

Oh my GAWWWWWD!:roll

goingCOASTAL · Aug 4, 2003

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur
I'll throw in here,
I believe that nursing curicculum sows the seed and plants the irrevocable idea that nursing is gender specific. Societal expectations notwithstanding, I believe that nursing schools use female-friendly curicculums to keep thier pass rates up(since most students are female) and the males are alienated from the profession from the first day on.

I would like to give a postmortem analysis on how it felt to sit in such a nursing program as a male.

I wanted to seek out a studygroup from the first day, but the conversations after class were not about the subject matter on that day and I had a very difficult time "working the room" in seeking out the most dedicated students.
Same thing the next class, and on, and on, and on.
If you were not prepared to discuss children,hairstyle,recipies.........blah,blah,blah..........you were NOT getting in any study groups. Why would they invite you to studygroup if you were male? After all, you were strangely silent after class. You stood around several groups but failed to enter any of the lively conversations when the other students were talking thier heads off! There must be something wrong with you.

From day one, the male does not socially fit into any groups.

Wow! I had problems with some of the wishy-washy curriculum, but not socially -- and neither did the other seven males in my class of 60. And the guys didn't all clique together, either -- we intermingled quite easily, and joined study groups. Sure, there was some diaper talk, but socially, there was never the problem that you've presented -- and my alma mater is in a real macho region of Texas.

I don't believe that gender discrimination keeps the males out from day one -- most of us had no prior health care experience and didn't have a clue about the curriculum on "day one," but, admittedly, guys had a harder time throughout our two-year program. Of the eight guys that started with us, one (our class president no less) flunked out mid-stream, and two of the three people that failed boards the first time were guys.

ainz · Aug 4, 2003

I agree that the problems begin in school with the way people are socialized into the profession. I say this based on what I have heard and my own experiences in school. I first went to one of those militaristic ADN programs where the instructors seemed to be getting their chance at "giving it back to the students." I was actually told I did not fit in with nursing and would never make it. They looked for reasons to try and get me out of the program. Unbelieveable. Should have told me something then but it only made me more determined.

I don't think it is the curriculim that is the problem, it is the way the female dominated nursing instructors socialize and teach nursing students to approach problem solving and assessment. It has a definite "female" slant, lots of estrogen floating around in it. Not as objective and factual based, more intuition and "touchy feely" kind of stuff.

As I have said before and will continue to say--the problems with nursing are due to a lack of how to communicate effectively with physicians and administration, the people that are the decision-makers in healthcare. These people want objective data, not histrionic opinions. Also it is detrimental to nursing overall when the staff do not participate in opportunities to influence their practice and practice setting and conduct themselves in most unprofessional ways at work, especially cowering down to, and flirting with, male physicians.

Nurses complain they don't feel valued, this is because they are not viewed as valued. Why is this? Because the average staff nurse cannot tell you how they contribute to the patient's outcome (other than carrying out doctor's orders), do not present themselves well as informed professionals, do not have a clue about financial issues and are not interested in learning, engage in petty bickering and fighting among themselves, and approach administration with requests and demands that they cannot back up with objective data and have no earthly idea about how this will impact themselves and the organization financially.

When are we going to learn???

allnurses Guide · Aug 4, 2003

Peeps, I found study groups to be just as you described, mostly social interactions with little real studying happening. I never do well in study groups and have always studied by myself. I learn better in a more focused environment. And I'm a girl:D

This is purely anecdotal but I have seen nurses who happen to be male indulge in the gossipy and backstabbing environment that is usually attributed to women. But by far, this is a woman-thing. It is so easy to get drawn into that mode and I work very hard to pull myself back from that - not always successfully. I find this happens at work when we are not busy.

I had one great and very demanding female instructor who focused on the clinical findings rather than psych-social stuff and I really appreciated that.

I work with a physician though who completely sets aside the psych-social stuff and is pretty brutal with people who are addicted to substances that are causing their clinical symptoms.

I'm not convinced this is the way to go . . . balance seems to be the key to me. We have frequent flyers who never change their behavior. How do we address that? Tough Love (Toughs**t) or find an in-patient treatment center?

I'm struggling with an adolescent daughter who is in the midst of this female backstabbing frenzy . . . .so this really interest me.

I'm much more aware of this at work now. . . . thanks for a thought-provoking post. Actually, thanks to all you "nurses who happen to be male".

steph

Peeps Mcarthur · Aug 4, 2003

From Coastal

I don't believe that gender discrimination keeps the males out from day one -- most of us had no prior health care experience and didn't have a clue about the curriculum on "day one,"

The percentage of females is that high because that is how nursing schools prefer it. I had prior healthcare experience but I never knew nurses actualy thought this way. You were fortunate to have had 11.7% gender representation. In my program it was 3/90 after the first test, or 3.3%. Since I left I've talked to one another male that stayed in. He spent 20 min confiding in me just one of the many incidents that made him feel unwelcome. He was a good student when he entered the program, confident and proud, now he's hanging on to his seat in the program by a thread and his GPA is in the toilet. He doesn't know what happend to the other guy................they don't talk.

Ainz

I don't think it is the curriculim that is the problem, it is the way the female dominated nursing instructors socialize and teach nursing students to approach problem solving and assessment. It has a definite "female" slant, lots of estrogen floating around in it. Not as objective and factual based, more intuition and "touchy feely" kind of stuff.

You reflect my sentiments exactly..................however, that curicculum is put together by those instructors and it reflects what they think and what you are tested on................as well as thier preposterous test questions.

iliel · Aug 4, 2003

Wow, I have almost walked away from reading these posts thinking that men think there is something wrong with women who dominate in a field. I'm disapointed.

Ainz, I'm not attacking you, but I think if you want to make a change in nursing, you need to go after the students. They are the ones who are idealistic and are willing to do things to make their future career better.

Peeps Mcarthur · Aug 5, 2003

Iliel,

Where do you get the idea that an equitable work enviroment is not influenced by gender?

I wish someone would have been honest with me and said "look, the fact is that the curicculum is gender specific since it is controlled by women. If you have a hard time thinking like one, honestly, don't waste your time and fill a seat that we could give to a woman."

It's not PC so it will never happen, and some guy pointing it out is also not PC so it will never happen. Look at your attitude about dominating men, instead it could have offered insight from your end of it.

Well, actualy it did.

iliel · Aug 5, 2003

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur
Iliel,

Where do you get the idea that an equitable work enviroment is not influenced by gender?

I wish someone would have been honest with me and said "look, the fact is that the curicculum is gender specific since it is controlled by women. If you have a hard time thinking like one, honestly, don't waste your time and fill a seat that we could give to a woman."

It's not PC so it will never happen, and some guy pointing it out is also not PC so it will never happen. Look at your attitude about dominating men, instead it could have offered insight from your end of it.

Well, actualy it did.

Ok, you really read into my post. Where was my "attitude" about men dominating. There are many male dominated fields.

If you feel the need to talk further about this, you can PM me.

I guess I just see a double standard.