Where are the men?

goingCOASTAL · Aug 5, 2003

Originally posted by ainz
I agree that the problems begin in school with the way people are socialized into the profession. I say this based on what I have heard and my own experiences in school. I first went to one of those militaristic ADN programs where the instructors seemed to be getting their chance at "giving it back to the students." I was actually told I did not fit in with nursing and would never make it. They looked for reasons to try and get me out of the program. Unbelieveable. Should have told me something then but it only made me more determined.

This went on in my school as well, but it wasn't gender related. There was one woman in our class that made it to the final semester, when her clinical instructor surprised her one day with this ultimatum (or at least my paraphrase of it): "I don't think you'll make a good nurse, so I'm giving you the opportunity to withdraw. I don't know how you made it this far, but I'm letting you know now that I'm not passing you out of this clinical -- and I don't care how you're doing with the lecture classes." Clinical grades were completely subjective, and completely dependent on the instructor's perception of you -- so it was essential to kiss lots of boo-boo lest you find yourself with the wrong grade.

gaspassah · Aug 5, 2003

well. ahem. my 2 cents. from this males perspective.

nursing is female dominated, female slanted in the educational system because it was started by.....females, at a time when women were ment to be subservient.

nurses constantly rant about respect. how they dont get it from administation and how they dont get it from mds. that is because from day one, nursing has never been anything but a glorified gofer role, and they never stood up to abuse doled out by mds.

md" nurse get me this, get me that" give the patient this and give them that. "

nursing never had a foundation that said "my actions affects the patients in this way". only when you F@##up does anyone care what your actions were.

physicians are based on outcome. treatment = results. thousands of years of science based treatments to achieve positive patient results.

nurses attempted to form some kind of "science" to base their actions on but "ineffectual coping realted to disease process" really doenst seem to matter when they got pints of blood spewing out their butt or face. dont get me wrong,, high risk for decubitous related to skin shear is important in some respects, but when your at the bedside all night with a patient on vent, dopamine, levophed, swann ganz, and gettin blood, is that really so important, or is the minute change in breath sounds that may suggest decreasing heart function, or drop in urine output, or suddenly the ng tube is putting out blood that wasnt there earlier more important in that patients outcome.

nurses are paid to notice changes (as someone put it earlier.) and report those changes, or treat them if it falls into your scope of practice:and there must be a way to convey that issue to the powers that be in nursing and medicine.

it is nearly impossible to break decades of ingrained thought processes from the way nurses think of nursing and how medicine thinks of nursing.

when your foundation was bedbaths and bedpans there is not much to go on from there.

nurses do not prescribe and do not diagnose. so what is left for us. we attempt to scienceify nursing with nursing diagnoses, but arent most of these just common sense. dont you turn your patients they cant turn themselves. dont you encourage nutritional intake if they are old and weak. do we really need "scientific" nursing diagnoses to tell us what really should be obvious.

im not the most touchy feely guy in the world, but dont you listen to people when they have problems. do they really need a diagnosis of altered coping before someone listens to them.

until you can tell the doctor or your administrator that YOU yourself saved someones life because you recognized the s/s of hypoglycemia made a decision about it and acted on it, will you begin to get respect.

when the md comes in and wants to know labs, do you tell them where they are, or do you tell em what they are and show that you are involved in that patients care enough to keep up with whats going on.

dont get me wrong there are plenty of times i feel like a pill pusher and foley flipper, but i never let anyone talk "down" to me or treat me with disrespect. i found this job when i was looking for one, i'll find the next job when i go looking for it.

empower yourself with knowledge, about your patients, their disease, their treatment and your skills, and dont take any s#$$ because your "just a nurse". man or woman

these are my most humble opinions.

goingCOASTAL · Aug 5, 2003

Originally posted by ainz
As I have said before and will continue to say--the problems with nursing are due to a lack of how to communicate effectively with physicians and administration, the people that are the decision-makers in healthcare. These people want objective data, not histrionic opinions. Also it is detrimental to nursing overall when the staff do not participate in opportunities to influence their practice and practice setting and conduct themselves in most unprofessional ways at work, especially cowering down to, and flirting with, male physicians.

Nurses complain they don't feel valued, this is because they are not viewed as valued. Why is this? Because the average staff nurse cannot tell you how they contribute to the patient's outcome (other than carrying out doctor's orders), do not present themselves well as informed professionals, do not have a clue about financial issues and are not interested in learning, engage in petty bickering and fighting among themselves, and approach administration with requests and demands that they cannot back up with objective data and have no earthly idea about how this will impact themselves and the organization financially.

When are we going to learn???

I think the problems with nursing are a little more complex than simply be writing all nurses off as histrionic, kowtowing idiots. In most hospitals I've worked at, an average nurse's workload was such that one only had time to be on the floor swabbing, sticking, hanging, cleaning, administering, etc., etc. Yes, I've had managers ask me for data proving complaints (such as ER dumping patients at the end of shift) -- yes, I did look a little perturbed. If I had time to stand around with a clipboard writing down times and occurances, I would have had time to not have had a problem (i.e., do the work I was complaining about not having time/resources to do).

The problem I've run across in my scant eight years of nursing, is not having many managers/directors with any "real" nursing experiences. Most went straight into management, and simply can't relate when the staff has problems. The few that have seem to be able to relate, and are able to sift through the "venting" and get at the root of the problem, sorting fact from fiction, etc. One dear manager got off her duff and actually investigated a particular problem our staff was complaining about and came up with the "data" to validate our complaint, which earned her a lot of respect on the floor. Some people have time to do the algebra, me -- I have a lady screaming down in 201-A for pain meds.

There are lots of professions with lots of different types of people and gender mixes. It's a little simple to just infer that everyone that happened to choose nursing as a career are simply whining ninnies with no grip on reality.

Louie18 · Aug 5, 2003

in 1972 I was part of .026% of males in nursing.

Today I am fried.

I would say most men can't keep up with the work or feel underpaid. I just cared.

Louie

goingCOASTAL · Aug 5, 2003

Originally posted by gaspassah
well. ahem. my 2 cents. from this males perspective.

nurses constantly rant about respect. how they dont get it from administation and how they dont get it from mds. that is because from day one, nursing has never been anything but a glorified gofer role, and they never stood up to abuse doled out by mds.
md" nurse get me this, get me that" give the patient this and give them that. "

I agree with this -- at least traditionally. And, although I know a few nurses that re-inforce this stereotype, the "go-for" role is a role that is ENFORCED by alot of hospital administration. I know nurses that have been disciplined -- one charge nurse friend of mine was demoted -- for giving smart-ass doctors a dose of their own medicine. Of course, it's okay for a physician to throw a chart across the unit, but if a nurse "talks back" to a foul mouthed doctor, his/her livelihood is threatened.

And the same goes with patients as well -- one hospital I worked at was obsessed with us doing this smiley-faced customer-service thing like we were maids at the downtown Marriot, walking slowly, exclaiming, "Is there anything else? I have the time!" (When in reality, you had a blood transfusion, two admits on the way, and a doctor on hold).

As a guy, I've never been verbally abused or assaulted by a physician, but I've often stated that if that chart flying across the unit ever made contact with me, I would have no problem filing assault charges.

The only nurses that make me cringe are the few that are left that STAND when a physician enters a station, or run to the coffee machine, exclaiming, "I can't remember Dr. Doolittle . . . do you like two sugars or one?"

I do agree that this kow-towing still occurs, but certainly not by all.

Peeps Mcarthur · Aug 5, 2003

Wow, I have almost walked away from reading these posts thinking that men think there is something wrong with women who dominate in a field. I'm disapointed.

I'm not going to PM you since we are on topic. It is possible to discuss this issue without direct and indirect insult.

Part of post #20 by Hbscott

I left nursing because I grew weary of the passive aggressive behavior I witnessed daily in nursing practice as nurses turned on each other for one reason or another.

Could this be an example of that?

Where are the men? They are out there with other men and women working hard looking for those jobs that give them in some measure personal satisfaction and financial well being.

Could it be because they are not welcome? I felt unwelcome and uncomfortable myself. I saw my future of more of the same, and I cut my losses by moving on.

If we discuss this topic in a nonconfrontational manner you will hear from other males that feel the same way. These males may be your coworkers. They are not likely to discuss this openly, so this is your chance for insight into how they feel.

If you feel shame, then perhapse you are guilty of inflicting it upon them.

ainz · Aug 5, 2003

gaspassah

I think your observations are right on target. Especially where you say that until the (nurse) can demonstrate they have saved someone's life by picking up on s/s, making a decision, and acting on it will you begin to get respect.

In my 14 years of staff nursing I have seen this happen several times in the critical care areas and some on the floor. Of course the nurse went out on a limb and did things and got the doctor order after the fact, but nonetheless, the nurse had the knowledge base, skill, and guts to just do what needed to be done. I think this demonstrates the capability of nurses to make REAL contributions to patient outcomes, not just TCDBq2h or give baths etc.

It is documenting these kinds of actions that show the contribution nurses can make. I well understand the limitations on staff nurses' time but someone needs to be engaging in activity that will help advance the profession, that is usually the nursing management and nursing director and perhaps researchers and educators. Particularly those in academia who have the time and resources to think, read, do literature reviews, design studies, gather and analyze data, etc.

I will be sick if I read another study under the guise of "nursing research" where we are studying nurses attitudes, behaviors, students' attitudes and behaviors and so on. I don't mean to be critical of nurses in academia who advocate such, but, we need some things that will arm the staff nurses, unit-level nurse managers, and directors of nursing with documented evidence that will be accepted by other disciplines that has real meaning and applicability to the point-of-service where it is all happening.

iliel · Aug 5, 2003

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur
I'll throw in here,
. Societal expectations notwithstanding, I believe that nursing schools use female-friendly curicculums to keep thier pass rates up(since most students are female)
Here is an example of something that would seem insulting to a female. It sounds like you're saying that women, being less intelligent than men, need to have curicculums "dumbed down" for them in order to pass.
I wanted to seek out a studygroup from the first day, but the conversations after class were not about the subject matter on that day and I had a very difficult time "working the room" in seeking out the most dedicated students.
Same thing the next class, and on, and on, and on.
If you were not prepared to discuss children,hairstyle,recipies.........blah,blah,blah..........you were NOT getting in any study groups. [/b]
Ok, if this happened after class, who cares, why does everyone have to talk about nursing 24/7. Did you even try to get to know these women. Did they try to get to know you?
The nursing staff is perplexed as to why I would not continue.
It's difficult to explain without offending them, so in all my maleness I gladly suppress what I'm feeling and tell them "it's just not for me"[/b]
why is it hard to explain? They needed to know how you felt so they can change things in the future. If you want change you need to speak up.
I am disapointed that the school allowed you to drop out, if this was really something you wanted, they shouldn't have done that.
Ok. I was not giving anyone here an attitude, These reasons above is why I felt like I could walk away from here thinking that men have a problem with a women dominant field. When I said I was disapointed, it was due to the fact that this happened in your shcool and that the teachers let you slip through with out noticing this was going on. Now that I hope you understand where I come from and understand that I wasn't trying to flame you, or give any "attitude" I hope we can talk. Do not assume anyone here has attitude about men. I am not going into nursing to be apart of a sorority, I already did that once.
Oh, and one more question. You said you were planning on being a PA. Do you plan to do rural or urban? I have seen some schools that are more rural in their training. Just wondering, it seems like a very interesting career. Thanks.

Peeps Mcarthur · Aug 5, 2003

Iliel,

A great example for discussion.

From Iliel (direct)

Here is an example of something that would seem insulting to a female. It sounds like you're saying that women, being less intelligent than men, need to have curicculums "dumbed down" for them in order to pass.

Iliel's quote of me

Societal expectations notwithstanding, I believe that nursing schools use female-friendly curicculums to keep thier pass rates up(since most students are female)

A curicculum that is attractive to females is developed by females, with the most pronounced attributes of a female mind taking precedence. Certainly, there are male nursing instructors somewhere, but women developed the concept of nursing, and those attributes which it values are in fact femminin.
I did not mean to infer that the curicculum is "dumbed down".
Ok, if this happened after class, who cares, why does everyone have to talk about nursing 24/7. Did you even try to get to know these women. Did they try to get to know you?
Being able to communicate on a social level is apparently a prerequisite to joining a study group as far as I have observed. I was not prepared for such a thing. The same women that were just pleading for my help in micro and A&P(I spent time tutoring to groups for free) virtualy ignored me once they were in nursing lectures. They were already in thier groups and when asked said "sorry we're full"
A studygroup full?.........all of them?..............gee
I understand that they now had the power. Psychosocial response is the female domain. They no longer had to try and understand the electron transport chain, gram positive vs. negative, or the chemical processes within a muscle cell...............nope, I was obselete to them socialy. I see it objectively, and I'm not bitter.
I appreciate the fact that you feel badly that my program could not have resoved the problem.
Thank you............However, I'm very glad now that It happened. It opened my eyes and forced me to see what I was really getting in to. Better that I moved on before I felt it everyday at work.
Whether rual or urban , I see myself in family practice believe it or not, but I won't make that judgement until I'm through my clinical rotations.
I don't shun all aspects of psychosocial theory, but it should not be to the detriment of medical science.

iliel · Aug 5, 2003

If I've walked away with anything from this, it's to welcome men. I've welcomed them before, but this sorta opens my eyes to some of the issues.

Thank you for clearing this up, I'm glad to hear you don't feel nursing is "dumbed down" for us ladies!

Good luck with the PA program! How much longer do you have?

goingCOASTAL · Aug 5, 2003

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur
I don't shun all aspects of psychosocial theory, but it should not be to the detriment of medical science.

I can't help but agree with this. One of the things that increasingly make my job more difficult is the increasingly longer admission assessments that someone with a suit keeps forcing us to use. When I started at this facility, the admission assessment and history was a mere six computer screens full of info (and I believe in nursing assessments). Today, it's like 20 screens, and most of it's useless "psychosocial" crap that merely takes our time away from patient care.

Alot of our nursing staff simply answers the questions "no" unless they appear to be relevant, but if we all "took the time" (which we never have), we'd have to ask every single patient we're admitting, "Have you ever been touched, kissed, fondled, etc. without your permission?" and more bizarre questions, even if our patient is a college linebacker. We've gone from a basic pain scale, to an entire pain assessment that's three pages long, and is supposed to be done every four hours, which asks such questions as, "how does that pain make you feel?" "How does it change when you blah, blah or blah?"

What happened to, "are you in pain," "where are you hurting," the 0-10 pain scale, and "let me see if I can get you some pain medication?"

If this "enth degree" psycho-social stuff was played out as it was designed, there would be no time for passing meds, assessing patient's real problems, or performing basic nursing skills.

ainz · Aug 5, 2003

Amen goingCOASTAL. Just so you will know, we have the JCAHO to thank for most of this "crap" as you say. Definitely have them to thank for the new emphasis on pain management, the new "fifth vital sign."