What is the opposition to Universal Healthcare

HM2VikingRN, RN · Nov 8, 2008

actually we would be better off financing our health care system with a 2% individual income tax, with the balance coming from a combination of employer taxes, and a small national VAT. (The other part of the savings is a contraction of our administative costs from 25% to 5%.)

Katie82, RN · Nov 9, 2008

. (The other part of the savings is a contraction of our administative costs from 25% to 5%.)

That makes sense, similar to the current Medicare Tax that is deducted. But how are we going to cut Administrative costs to 2%, I just don't see that happening. Healthcare delivery bears a very high administrative burden.

woknblues · Nov 10, 2008

that makes sense, similar to the current medicare tax that is deducted. but how are we going to cut administrative costs to 2%, i just don't see that happening. healthcare delivery bears a very high administrative burden.

and the government administrative burden for healthcare would be colossal, at best. not entirely a deal breaker, but it must give us a moment of pause.

getmeoutofhere · Nov 10, 2008

That makes sense, similar to the current Medicare Tax that is deducted. But how are we going to cut Administrative costs to 2%, I just don't see that happening. Healthcare delivery bears a very high administrative burden.

Can you explain how the current system which includes thousands looking for excuses to avoid paying out treatment going to be less than a uhc system?

maybe you should demonstrate the administrative costs for the systems in europe as you'll find they are, in the main, cheaper!

ZippyGBR, BSN, RN · Nov 13, 2008

not all people can afford to pay the higher taxes
universal health care in several european countries results in long waits for appointments and for trestments

define 'long'

because i dn't think an appointment with your family doctor in under 48 hours is long , neither is initial consultation with family doctor to completment of treatment in 18 weeks particularly long ... ( disregarding for the monent the cardiac and ?cancer targets which are much more rigourous... )

neither is seen admitted or discharged from the emergency department in under 4 hours ...

one woman needed A/P repair and it was denied because it was determined that this was 'cosmetic' surgery

what repair?

and given the discusson on the site aobut insurers and HMOs fdisputing costs ...

it is said that health care should be a decision between patient and their doctor but this will be wiped out if a government agency has to determine what is necessary or not

so you'd rather place the insurance underwriter whose main duty is to his investors and shareholders as the intermediary

the government will decide what the nurses and other health care workers should receive in pay and benefits

only if the government chooses to take over existing providers or create it's own network of directly managed providers ...

ironically the strong national structure of UK unions has contributed at least as much to the prevention of local pay arrangements as the government has ... pre AFC trusts could depart from national TaCoS and foundation trusts have some ability to do this ...

paddlelady, BSN, RN · Nov 18, 2008

The key to all this is Who is going to manage the health care system. Who is ethical . An agency whether it may be governement or a free standing insurance company is not a patient advocate. Money management is the bottom line. Patients dont really matter. I cant believe an Abdominal perineal resection was denied. It has been a standard of care forever. That one could have been negoiated.

Health care costs will be skyrocketing with new technologies that are upcoming. That will also hit the cousumer in the pocket or the tax payer.

It is going to effect every single one of us not matter who takes charge.

Health care will be an on going debate for centuries to come. How do we ethically manage the sick and the economics of it all. It is a big job. :twocents:

Paddlelady

woknblues · Nov 20, 2008

Obama gives Tom Daschle the nod as his HHS Sec. This could be a major win for UHC and all kinds of reform. Stem cell, reigning in pharma co's, expanding SCHIP, small providers, etc.

Anyone read his book?

lamazeteacher · Nov 20, 2008

I decided to start a new thread because the others take a completely different spin.
I am by no means well versed on this subject, but from my limited understanding universal healthcare isn't a bad thing. I personally do not mind paying higher taxes if my healthcare is already paid for. I'm a student now, but when I did have health insurance I rarely went to the doctor becuase of the deductible and I was already paying at lease $200 either a check or month. I also don't see how universal healthcare would be bad for hospitals, to me that means that the hospitals will get their money. I'm from Illinois and just this year one hospital nearly closed because they weren't getting paid for services rendered. I also saw in some threads that people would "take advantage" of universal healthcare? How does one take advantage of healthcare? And if more people did get regular check ups would that likely decrease the need for hospitalization? Wouldn't it be under preventive medicine (I thought that was what we nurses and soon to be nurses were promoting) These are just my thoughts. If you disagree that's fine, you are entitled to. I'm for it and would gladly pay the higher taxes, at least then I know some of the money that is taken from me will directly help me.

In Canada, it was thought that "taking advantage of the health care system" would mean that those whose efforts go more into avoiding work than doing it, would be "squeaky doors", increasing patient loads, ergo costs while others more industrious would have to work harder for them. Of course this has happened, but not to the excessive degree or reason that was first thought.

My sister (not a nurse) became an investigator (private eye) for Equifax in Canada, going out to see what was up with those who had histories of long (doctor permitted) absences from work due to illness (not necessarily abusing the health care system)without adequate reason. I went along with her on some calls she made (without knowing the names of those she investigated).

The main cause of the findings, was that people collect "disability" payments while working elsewhere....... The most common visit was to neighbors of the person/suspect, who almost always told my sister (a lovely little grey haired, well dressed lady) that their neighbor was "at work". End of case! Doctor chastised.

There are nurses who do that in the USA, but if they were employed in sufficient number, discovering all those who illegally remained on disability, there would be less of that and the nurses and insurance companies would find their services no longer needed.

However the majority of those working illegally in Canada are - you guessed it - new immigrants testing the system there. Based on those findings, it would behoove insurance companies to categorize those most likely to abuse the system, and go after them. Unfortunately innocents could (and do) get caught in that net, and have a very tough time obtaining reemployment, as once in the computer system as such, it's pretty impossible to get off it.

That reminds me of FICO scores, and the resistance of companies to increase peoples scores, as that would render their services less necessary. They could establish a business in which exoneration is possible, but there seems to be some hidden blocks to doing that.

lamazeteacher · Nov 20, 2008

not all people can afford to pay the higher taxes
universal health care in several european countries results in long waits for appointments and for trestments
one woman needed A/P repair and it was denied because it was determined that this was 'cosmetic' surgery
it is said that health care should be a decision between patient and their doctor but this will be wiped out if a government agency has to determine what is necessary or not
the government will decide what the nurses and other health care workers should receive in pay and benefits

Well, now that we have President-elect Obama, we don't have to worry about increased taxation in our (nurses') tax brackets. Only those making more that $250,000 (individually) will have 5% of that overage taxed beyond the regular amount owed. Inflation could drive that figure upward, or cause nurses to be in that bracket, but I doubt that will happen in my or my children's lifetimes.

There are so many reasons for A&P repairs (some having to do with male sexual needs, others incontinence of urine or uterine or rectal prolapse). I can't imagine that a doctor would have any difficulty substantiating it, unless his thought/written skills are lacking. No one other than a health care professional will have anything to do with permitting or prohibiting procedures in our health care system. A government agency is going to be involved in moving money, not body organs!

My Canadian family has no complaints about wait times in physician, lab, or radiology offices or for needed surgeries (and I check with them often). Since the offices there aren't as substantially decorated as ours, it may just seem that longer waits occur; and the space is more limited, so they are crowded. I see an ophthalmologist there, who has 2 waiting rooms where the chairs are always occupied (parents attend appointmenmts of their children - toys are not there for their enjoyment).

A month ago I waited 10 minutes and he called me in for the examination himself. I did notice that the plastic housing of a fluorescent light was off, exposing wires in the ceiling. I hope that was due to a replacement program with energy conserving bulbs, but I did have "culture shock". There was a kid in the waiting room who had a ball hit his eye at school that day, and he got right in without any problem (and he had only external trauma), due too his having DM.

Most doctors' offices in Toronto have evening hours ('til 9 or 10) in clinics at shopping malls! That is because there is greater security at those times in those locations, which results in lowered health care costs. Employers are happier to have employees see their doctors on their own time. Granted, those clinics fill way ahead of time, and are not for accident victims or sudden acute illnesses. Those victims are seen sooner at hospital urgent care settings, without routine cases taking up staff time.

Much more thought by many, is given the distribution of health care. Here, individual doctors often are responsible for long waits, especially if they see patients in their offices the same days as they do surgeries or deliveries. :bugeyes:

lamazeteacher · Nov 20, 2008

doesn't everyone have a "right" to health care? it's easy to agree with a meaningless campaign promise such as "affordable health care for all".
universal healthcare amplifies all problems. it reduces patient incentives to find the best possible prices for the best possible services/products available. patients in the u.s. who receive "free" (taxpayer-funded) health care have no incentive to conserve their health care dollars. care is "free" so they visit the doctor's office several times a month or request "free" prescriptions for over-the-counter medication such as tylenol.
it reduces physician incentives to provide competitive care and reduces drug companies' incentives to provide new drugs and treatments.
it steals from your wallet to pay for my health care. yes, you do have a right to health care, just as you have a right to food, shelter and property. however, you have no "right" to force others to provide these things for you - all "free" medical care is subsidized through taxes stolen from other people. the quality of "free" health care will deteriorate and the average citizen will get sicker. as the poor and middle-class wait for simple procedures, those with resources can travel to other countries for treatment.
it destroys your privacy. suddenly your problems are mine and mine are yours. if you eat unhealthy foods or drive a motorcycle without a helmet, i have a direct interest in your business - you are going to see a provider on my tax dollars.
it destroys your liberty. when you blindly support a system that bestows power on politicians and bureaucrats, they will receive their orders from those with the most money and this will not be you, your friends or your family. the power of government will be used against you as you are forced to use medicines or accept treatments from well-connected health care companies.

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wow!! you are wrong.

quarantine signs were used on houses of those with highly infectious diseases (like rheumatic fever, mumps, polio) years ago, which certainly didn't improve concerns about privacy but did address the need to curb that illness.

there's no privacy for a motorcyclist who rides without a helmet, as everyone sees him/her doing that! when you buy junk/harmful foods, others see them in the basket at the store...... the feeling i get in canada, is that i have sort of an extended family who cares about my welfare, and wishes me well. plus lowering cost of care.

the type of person who goes to medical school in countries with universal coverage is more likely to care about the health of others, rather than thinking about becoming billionnaires, which american doctors do. my doctor here has me come to his office for an appointment to get the results of lab and/or x-rays, to get paid more. when an x-ray was reported as demonstrating my enlarged heart, he said that "must be an error". so i haven't had it investigated more (but i will, soon), and i now distrust his opinion. his aim is for me to have worsened chd, and need more of his "care". good-bye gold digging doc! physicians here don't compete as much by providing excellence in their care, but do flaunt the largest homes and expensive cars and arm "candy" they have through charging exhorbitant, ever increasing fees.

the power in a universal healthcare system is not with self serving politicians and bureaucrats,as they will not be called upon to make decisions about your individual situation. only health care professionals will do that! just as happens in the usa, dangerous psychotics have nurses come to give their anti-psychotic injectable meds, if their unreliability to take them orally has been proven, and jeopardizes them or their communities. except here, the funding for that is not equal to that for physical illnesses, so many more slip through the cracks and injure or kill others. also, peace officers (police) have regular acquaintance with the urgent situations they cause, and get trigger happy, killing many of them. we caused that when psychiatric hospital doors were closed due to the unpopularity of mental health care funding diminishing support of politicians who stood up for psychiatric programs. so they didn't and don't. our president-elect barack obama has that as a priority.

diabetics often are noncompliant here and where there is universal care, and die earlier deaths and have miserable lives due to their rejection/denial of their illness. no one makes them have their insulin or closes their mouths to harmful high caloric foods in our oe other countries' systems. however, in a system where everyone contributes to health care coverage, there is more public education in forms that are understood, in many languages. i've never seen so many signs in many languages as i do in toronto. even the street names are written in the language of most people who live in neighborhoods there, as well as in english and french.

right now your tax dollars are used here to treat those who haven't accessed health care providers early in the course of their chronic diseases, and need prolonged hospitalization (they don't die quickly or inexpensively). also unemployment of those with health histories that caused more sick days than an employer would tolerate, are getting assistance due to their increased needs due to poverty and lack of insurance coverage. who do you think pays the excessive charges for health care costs, here? access to health care here is very difficult if not impossible for those without health insurance. productive people have less health care needs and lower costs.

i was in canada when universal health care was born there. 7 doctors invented it, prepared a program, presented it to the city's government where they worked, it was approved, and happened. no politician with that platform in mind was elected for it! no presentation was given people there. they were simply told, "this will be good for you, take it". they were more than happy with it. i had $17/month taken from my paycheck as a nurse and never thought to resent others benefitting from it. i was young, needed no care, and was happy that i could contribute to others' welfare. as a public health nurse, i worked in a rural, 25 square mile area with 5,000 families and 4 schools. i was expected to do home visits for anyone who had been in hospital within 48 hours of their discharge; all postpartum women and newborns within 24 hours of discharge; anyone with a chronic disease monthly; and perform all school nurse duties at the 4 schools; and attend well baby clinics weekly.

i loved my work!

you sound like a selfish,uncharitable person. if everyone thought as you do, we'd live in chaos, as there is in india with people dying in the streets of cities there, by the hundreds, every night. you probably wouldn't step over them as most do, but step on them! stop that!!!! :nono:

loriangel14, RN · Nov 21, 2008

the feeling i get in canada, is that i have sort of an extended family who cares about my welfare, and wishes me well. plus lowering cost of care.

thank you lamazeteacher.

julbug75 · Nov 22, 2008

How embarrassing that there are STILL people in America who think that Obama is proposing a "Socialist" Universal Health Care plan. Get educated!

And even if he were - GOOD! What a selfish, greedy, unpatriotic notion to not want to help provide for your fellow man! I WANT my tax dollars to go towards the HEALTH and welfare of our nations citizens, NOT to send them to a "war" to line some greedy, worthless politicians pockets.

My husband and I are HARD-WORKING, educated American citizens who have had to rely on state-funded health care for the past 6 months. What is really sad about this system, is that we could lose it at any moment for making "too much" money! HA! But those who do not work, and therefore do not pay taxes, have no chance of losing their health care. In Wisconsin, you can pay a premium, depending on your income, and recieve excellent health care benefits. There are some deductibles for higher income brackets, but you still need to be below a certain amount. I we were to take my husbands insurance, it would cost us $950/month with RIDICULOUS deductibles and co-pays. We would go bankrupt instantaniously!! THIS IS WRONG! Everyone should have the opportunity to buy reasonably priced health care.

Restrictions and restraints need to be put on profit margins of pharmacuetical companies, INSURANCE needs to DISSAPEAR - or mandated as non-profit, as well as health care institutions. If you work for a health care institution, your care should be free. We are being taken advantage of by Insurance and pharmaceutical companies, and this needs to stop. We need to insure people so that they will seek out preventative care when needed.

I RESENT the statement saying that people recieving public assisted health care take advantage of the system - THIS IS NOT TRUE! My family seeks health care when necessary, not on a whim because we are covered.