We Must Demolish NP Diploma Mills

djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP · Apr 29, 2024

MentalKlarity said:

I am sorry that you don't understand that someone's BEDSIDE RN experience is not what makes them a capable provider. That is not where they learn complex pathophysiology and prescription management and biochemistry. That should come from graduate school, and for the diploma mill grads it is clearly not.

Beside manner doesn't even register in these schools. They have no minimum of nursing experience required. Many can move straight from their RN degree without showing any form of patient competence outside the bare minimum NCLEX pass.

QqGgKk, BSN, MSN, RN · Apr 29, 2024

I see the points why people are against the existence of diploma millers, but I don't think that the forum is meant to bully the students who chose the diploma millers or make them feel uncomfortable/diffident in discussing any related topics.

If you are in those so called diploma millers, you can work harder to approve yourself and I believe that you can be as component as others who graduate from more credible schools.

( Disclaimers: I graduated from a public school so I don't have any conflict of interests in making my statements. I speak from an outsider's viewpoint and strive to be objective yet positive in my statements. )

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · Apr 29, 2024

MentalKlarity said:

The truth is, I cannot look at a patient and say "All NPs are equal to physicians" now that these Walden grads exist. I tell them - look at where they went to school. Every time I encounter an idiotic medication order, or major error, or missed diagnosis from an NP, they went to a diploma mill. Those schools simply don't have to standards. And I am sorry that you don't understand that someone's BEDSIDE RN experience is not what makes them a capable provider. That is not where they learn complex pathophysiology and prescription management and biochemistry. That should come from graduate school, and for the diploma mill grads it is clearly not.

Amen. Recently, I have been feeling ashamed of being an NP because of all the bad NPs now being churned out by diploma mills. I am also dismayed at how many users of this forum openly ask for the fastest and easiest schools for becoming an NP. Given that NPs basically perform the same functions as MDs and DOs, this is truly alarming.

Freckledkorican, MSN, APRN · Apr 29, 2024

FullGlass said:

Amen. Recently, I have been feeling ashamed of being an NP because of all the bad NPs now being churned out by diploma mills. I am also dismayed at how many users of this forum openly ask for the fastest and easiest schools for becoming an NP. Given that NPs basically perform the same functions as MDs and DOs, this is truly alarming.

Agree with every sentence. Lately, more and more patients weave into the visit the question, „So, where'd you study?“. Once they hear where I went, they seem to relax. I thought it was an odd question to ask, but maybe they've been encountering subpar NPs from certain schools or heard negative experiences from others. Beats me.

MentalKlarity, BSN, NP · Apr 29, 2024

QqGgKk said:

I see the points why people are against the existence of diploma millers, but I don't think that the forum is meant to bully the students who chose the diploma millers or make them feel uncomfortable/diffident in discussing any related topics.

If you are in those so called diploma millers, you can work harder to approve yourself and I believe that you can be as component as others who graduate from more credible schools.

( Disclaimers: I graduated from a public school so I don't have any conflict of interests in making my statements. I speak from an outsider's viewpoint and strive to be objective yet positive in my statements. )

This forum is to help people and if we can dissuade people from supporting these joke educations we can help their own future and the future of our profession.

DippityDooDah · May 1, 2024

londonflo said:

Just so I get this right by your calculations..( hypothetical stats) for the gathering of data for a fictitious program for 3 years of graduates:

79%

79%

82%

I call this dismal. No wonder they do not publicly post these rates. Over the 3 years of data - 47% have not achieved the minimal score on their NP certification exam on their first attempt at a minimal qualification standardized exam granting entry practice as an NP and they will still have to pay off loans..

The math here is incorrect. A mean of 20% or less of students may achieve less than a passing score over the preceding three years to meet qualifications.

47% is an inaccurate sum of percentages if you pulled the figures from the fictitious program you run out of your basement . If this percentage is retrieved from an analysis of graduate test taker success, please cite your source, londonflo.

DippityDooDah · May 1, 2024

MentalKlarity said:

You're diagnosing a personality disorder based on a single statement that poster made about improving NP education quality? Definitely sounds like a Walden graduate's level of skill.

I am sorry the truth hurts your feelings but maybe you shouldn't have gone to the easiest school you could find? Walden accepts anyone with a pulse. Have you ever heard of people from Harvard or Yale or Stanford cold calling people and begging them to apply or putting up ads requesting applications? Walden turns no one away because they're a business and they want money. That's it. You chose a school that has constant start dates and sues pre-packaged modules and barely oversees clinicals and you got the education we expected. What you hear on the board is a fraction of what people say about Walden graduates in the real world. It's a running joke among people. I just had a laugh with a physician colleague a few weeks ago when he said he wished he could hire another NP and when the nurse in the office was going back to school and commented "you could always get one of those overnight Walden degrees but then I probably wouldn't hire you anyway.”

I wish the healthcare industry the best of luck in staffing clinics in the future.

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · May 1, 2024

DippityDooDah said:

I wish the healthcare industry the best of luck in staffing clinics in the future.

The solution is to have more GOOD schools and/or to increase spaces at existing GOOD schools, not have a bunch of poor quality schools churning out poor quality grads.

MentalKlarity, BSN, NP · May 2, 2024

DippityDooDah said:

I wish the healthcare industry the best of luck in staffing clinics in the future.

We shouldn't be staffing clinics with idiots

FolksBtrippin, BSN, RN · May 26, 2024

cprimavera said:

Good question and I will just put my opinion here. When you search "nurse practitioner" on Google, all these programs that advertise "you can become a practitioner within xx months! Apply now! No GRE required!" probably fall into that category. Also, I personally feel that all the programs that allow you to work aren't rigorous enough. Have you seen a medical student who works for a part-time? Have you seen a CRNA student who works for a part time? Of course, there may be one or two but working during professional school is usually unimaginable and unlikely. On the other hand, there are so many NP students who work part-time, or even full-time.

I was once in the substandard NP Program and I was able to work full time while getting A's in all of my exams. Honestly, I never studied enough to get an A but it was so easy since everything was online. Now, I am in one of the most rigorous programs in the nation and I am UNABLE to work. Why? the courses are more rigorous in every single way (I can explain about this more in detail...). I am so sorry if going back to school without continuous income sounds too harsh to some nurses, but this should be the way if you truly want to become a good provider. There is no professional school that allows so much of free time (even enough for you to work full time), except for those NP diploma mills. No physician, pharmDs, dentists, optometrists, vets, or CRNAs had such leeways during their school.

There will be NPs who claim that they are STILL amazing providers even after they graduated from whatever program and they are 100% competent in carrying tasks out. But we are providers, not just technicians. NPs should be the leaders in nursing and healthcare, not just those nurses who take care of tasks that were unwanted by physicians. The only way to make our voice heard and meaningful is through raising the education standard high for NPs and keep the bar high to enter. Eventually, when we gain more respect and reputation as providers, I am sure that there will be more scholarships and loan programs for nurses to complete programs without working at the same time.

Nope, I'm not calling an NP school a diploma mill just because there is an ad for getting your NP within XX months or just because it allows you to work while in school.

Part of the reason we have such a dire shortage of providers in the US is because medical school is financially unattainable for most people. Most people do not have the resources to have someone financially support them for 8 years while they complete undergrad and medical school. Also this has historically produced rich white doctors.

We don't need more of that.

It's not wrong for anyone in this country to assertively recruit NPs. It's not wrong for NP students to work during school. We're NURSES. We should work as nurses during NP school, as it gives the opportunity to apply and develop skills. Stopping work for NP school does not make sense at all, and it's not the model for learning that we are using. Med students are not professional healthcare providers, they are coming at this a different way and that's okay for them. It's not okay for the country to depend on the few med school graduates to be the only ones to care for them. We can't do it.

We're not med students, it's not med school and it doesn't need to be, so stop comparing or holding up med school as something we should aspire to.

londonflo · May 26, 2024

FolksBtrippin said:

Med students are not professional healthcare providers,

???

FolksBtrippin said:

all these programs that advertise "you can become a practitioner within xx months! Apply now! No GRE required!"

This is just connecting with what you said. Why are so many nursing NP candidates afraid of the GRE? It is has a section on critical thinking! You can do that, right? ! I only needed the Miller Analogies for graduate school approval but still took the GRE. AND here is where the benefit comes in...Many reputable colleges distribute scholarships based on GRE scores and scholarship rewards must be equitable across all graduate programs ( for all graduate programs like ,OT, Bio , PT ...and Nursing. etc..) Since so few did the test for entry I got a whole semester paid for! All it took was a Saturday morning testing to get the $$.

Do the non private schools not do this?

MentalKlarity, BSN, NP · May 27, 2024

FolksBtrippin said:

Nope, I'm not calling an NP school a diploma mill just because there is an ad for getting your NP within XX months or just because it allows you to work while in school.

Part of the reason we have such a dire shortage of providers in the US is because medical school is financially unattainable for most people. Most people do not have the resources to have someone financially support them for 8 years while they complete undergrad and medical school. Also this has historically produced rich white doctors.

We don't need more of that.

It's not wrong for anyone in this country to assertively recruit NPs. It's not wrong for NP students to work during school. We're NURSES. We should work as nurses during NP school, as it gives the opportunity to apply and develop skills. Stopping work for NP school does not make sense at all, and it's not the model for learning that we are using. Med students are not professional healthcare providers, they are coming at this a different way and that's okay for them. It's not okay for the country to depend on the few med school graduates to be the only ones to care for them. We can't do it.

We're not med students, it's not med school and it doesn't need to be, so stop comparing or holding up med school as something we should aspire to.

You're embarrassing yourself and this profession. Schools that accept 100% of applicants are a joke, end of story. The reality is that there are Many people who are too dumb to be medical providers and admissions should wean them out. At reputable schools they do, because they CARE about their reputation. At diploma mills the goal is money so they accept everyone who applies - they can't lose a single dollar of that sweet sweet tuition money. And why do for profit schools thrive in the nursing industry? Because read this forum, a whole army of people who don't have enough basic intelligence to see a scam and actually have the audacity to defend these joke programs as reputable, with arguments such as "we don't need to be as good as medical school anyway!”