We Must Demolish NP Diploma Mills

[cprimavera]

What is AANP doing with those programs??? I think we should unite to take an action on such diploma mills.

[TheMoonisMyLantern, ADN, LPN, RN]

3 hours ago, Ace Savanahh said:

The thing that trips me out is that I have hear RNs with Associate degrees put down people pursuing their NP license and good offended when people bring up their BSN degrees.  They're just jealous. 

It has nothing to do with jealousy, and no one is putting down students who are furthering their education. Concerns and criticism towards curriculum content and delivery, rigor, standardization of clinicals, admission criteria, and cost of education are all valid concerns and should not be taken as a personal attack.

To dismiss such criticism as jealousy is a cop out to try to keep one's ego from being bruised.

A degree does NOT equal an education.

[TheMoonisMyLantern, ADN, LPN, RN]

1 hour ago, PsychNurse24 said:

Your whole premise is that there are “diploma mills” out there and that it is embarrassing that they accept everyone. So please defend your premise with data!!  Why is it so horrible that they accept everyone. Please prove that these universities turn out poor quality nurse practitioners!  You don’t have any data!!   You just have your opinions.  

It feels as though we're just going in circles, concerns about the current state of online NP programs are posted and then you or someone else shouts for data or studies which is a fair request but as it has been stated they do not exist at this time. Right now concerns are based off of opinions, reports of people's experiences with graduates, reports of former students, reports that healthcare systems are rejecting graduates from certain schools, reports of licensure limitations, all of these things are anecdotal and this has been acknowledged. So, I don't know why we keep going back to demands for studies and data, it's beating a dead horse.

It has also been acknowledge that students can be successful regardless of the program they select, so why do you keep posting as if someone has gone after you personally for choosing Walden. Instead of telling us to get over ourselves, why don't you get over yourself, put your ego on the side and actually think about what is being said.

[Ace Savanahh]

29 minutes ago, TheMoonisMyLantern said:

It has nothing to do with jealousy, and no one is putting down students who are furthering their education. Concerns and criticism towards curriculum content and delivery, rigor, standardization of clinicals, admission criteria, and cost of education are all valid concerns and should not be taken as a personal attack.

To dismiss such criticism as jealousy is a cop out to try to keep one's ego from being bruised.

A degree does NOT equal an education.

Sure it doesn’t ADN ??

[Hoosier_RN, MSN]

3 hours ago, Ace Savanahh said:

Sure it doesn’t ADN ??

It doesn't. I've met LPNs that could run rings around ADNs, BSNs, MSNs, and NPs. As well I have met NPs/PAs and MDs that I wouldn’t want treating my worst enemy, much less my beloved family members. I have encountered CNAs who make all of the above look like idiots. 

Alphabet soup behind your name doesn't equal intelligence, it only shows education/testing ability. 

[djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP]

6 hours ago, MentalKlarity said:

There should be entry standards. Do you truly thing everyone is intelligent enough to be a medical provider? I've met a number of diploma-mill graduates. I even did clinicals with one in a shared office. They're not impressive. It's scary. Even physicians who used to fight for and respect NPs are starting to pull back. It's becoming indefensible at this point. The profession will be better off and have a brighter future if they eventually close down and I hope they do.

The lack of entry requirements imo speaks only to their business model more than outcomes. They are making money off of students who may or may not complete their courses and will have no problem allowing them to take and retake classes should they fail to keep that money going. They will get nailed for this eventually as many for profits do. But I don’t begrudge them for this. My ADN was at a reputable nursing program in upstate NY. This SUNY school accepted tons of students from NYC; many of whom needed remedial classes before they could even start regular college classes. They enticed these students to attend by offering a weekend bus to go home should they want and other incentives to keep that pipeline open.  Many of them failed some classes multiple times and often took 3-4 years for a two year degree.  These weren’t nursing students, but I saw it in many of my general ED courses. So similar practices happen across the board and aren’t reserved to for profit schools. State schools recognize the money that can be brought in by these students who don’t consider the massive debt they’re accumulating for nothing  

I think it has less to do about barriers of entry and more to do about rigors of curriculum. The presumed problem with schools like the Walden’s(still no grads to refute these) is that they don’t really prepare anyone clinically and have minimal standards of education through the process. Write a paper, pass a course.  Which in the end is doing a great disservice to our professions reputation. This is what makes it a mill and makes it dangerous.  But somehow they are meeting ACEN standards which is an even bigger concern on their own integrity.  If a significant number these grads are passing boards, then it only speaks to the lack of a barrier at that level and perhaps a need to make that exam harder.  I don’t know the Walden board pass rate, but I presume it isn’t high as is.  I know my school makes that information public at a 98% first time board pass rate.  At the end of the day, the problem isn’t the school so much as the organizations that accredit them.  Either way, you won’t find me precepting a student from most online for profit programs. 

[Corey Narry, MSN, RN, NP]

I've always held an opinion that the accrediting bodies (CCNE and maybe ACEN as well) are to blame. Be aware though that there is a change to CCNE standards in 2018 (see link below) and it does now ask that schools ensure adequate resources and clinical sites. Schools that don't practice this are already accredited but I imagine on their next cycle of reaccreditation, they will have to comply. I hope this will make an impact and I know that a group of NP students organized and pressured CCNE to make this happen.

The boards are another issue. I took the ACNP boards by ANCC. I'm going to say outright that it wasn't a tough exam. You take a review course and virtually every concept covered showed up on the test. This was in 2003 so maybe things have changed. I think a good program would have graduates pass a certification exam without having to take a review course but again, we've made it so that graduates rely on that formal review to be acquainted with the language and concepts in the test.

https://www.aacnnursing.org/Portals/42/CCNE/PDF/Summary-Major-Revisions-to-2018-Standards.pdf

[PsychNurse24, BSN, RN]

9 hours ago, TheMoonisMyLantern said:

It feels as though we're just going in circles, concerns about the current state of online NP programs are posted and then you or someone else shouts for data or studies which is a fair request but as it has been stated they do not exist at this time. Right now concerns are based off of opinions, reports of people's experiences with graduates, reports of former students, reports that healthcare systems are rejecting graduates from certain schools, reports of licensure limitations, all of these things are anecdotal and this has been acknowledged. So, I don't know why we keep going back to demands for studies and data, it's beating a dead horse.

It has also been acknowledge that students can be successful regardless of the program they select, so why do you keep posting as if someone has gone after you personally for choosing Walden. Instead of telling us to get over ourselves, why don't you get over yourself, put your ego on the side and actually think about what is being said.

You are also beating a dead horse because you guys keep posting the same demands to demolish these universities.  You NEVER say anything new in these threads. And talk about ego and arrogance, “We need to demolish” are the words in the actual name of the thread.  Do you really think you all have the power to actually demolish the universities, and do you think ruining the universities and destroying the jobs and livelihoods is the answer?   I think you are much more arrogant than I.  As long as people agree with you they can post but because I disagree you tell me I’m beating the dead horse?  And  to want to demolish universities based on your opinions is ludicrous. When you do have data why don’t you start these discussions up again??

[djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP]

2 minutes ago, PsychNurse24 said:

You are also beating a dead horse because you guys keep posting the same demands to demolish these universities.  You NEVER say anything new in these threads. And talk about ego and arrogance, “We need to demolish” are the words in the actual name of the thread.  Do you really think you all have the power to actually demolish the universities, and do you think ruining the universities and destroying the jobs and livelihoods is the answer?   I think you are much more arrogant than I.  As long as people agree with you they can post but because I disagree you tell me I’m beating the dead horse?  And  to want to demolish universities based on your opinions is ludicrous. When you do have data why don’t you start these discussions up again??

People have literally expressed concern about actual students they’ve precepted from those schools. Specifically about the rigors of educational standards and clinical preparedness standards that the schools have failed to meet. It’s these experiences that continue to bury these schools in heaps of disgust by practitioners who went to schools with some form of educational standards. So please tell us about why these experiences are bunk and preferably not based on your own perceived excelling. Because the broader NP community appears to disagree with you. 

[Ace Savanahh]

7 hours ago, Hoosier_RN said:

It doesn't. I've met LPNs that could run rings around ADNs, BSNs, MSNs, and NPs. As well I have met NPs/PAs and MDs that I wouldn’t want treating my worst enemy, much less my beloved family members. I have encountered CNAs who make all of the above look like idiots. 

Alphabet soup behind your name doesn't equal intelligence, it only shows education/testing ability. 

Rightttttttt, and Trump worked for Russia.  You think CNAs can give foleys and medications or a nurse can perform heart surgery?  You better believe those credentials mean something unless your roll as an RN is going to be changing sheets only.  If that’s the case a house keeper at a hotel beats everyone.   Keep your Fake propaganda To yourself.   

[Hoosier_RN, MSN]

Just now, Ace Savanahh said:

Rightttttttt, and Trump worked for Russia.  Keep your Fake propaganda To yourself.   

MSN and almost 30 years experience as a nurse. No fake propaganda, reality. If you can't handle that, it's on you. I have nothing to prove

[Ace Savanahh]

10 minutes ago, Hoosier_RN said:

MSN and almost 30 years experience as a nurse. No fake propaganda, reality. If you can't handle that, it's on you. I have nothing to prove

You should Read my updated post.  It really puts things into perspective.  

[Ace Savanahh]

45 minutes ago, djmatte said:

People have literally expressed concern about actual students they’ve precepted from those schools. Specifically about the rigors of educational standards and clinical preparedness standards that the schools have failed to meet. It’s these experiences that continue to bury these schools in heaps of disgust by practitioners who went to schools with some form of educational standards. So please tell us about why these experiences are bunk and preferably not based on your own perceived excelling. Because the broader NP community appears to disagree with you. 

I’m in CA.  Some people express concern over every nurse coming from out of state.  It is rediculous.  Some are lousy and some are damn good.  Depends on the person.