Valid Reasons To Not Get Vaccinated

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Whether you're in support of the COVID vaccine, against it,  or on the fence please use this particular thread to cite credible, evidence-based sources to share with everyone so we can engage in a discussion that revolves around LEARNING.  

I'll start:

The primary concerns I've shared with others have to do with how effective the vaccine is for those who have already been infected.  I've reviewed studies and reports in that regard.  There are medical professionals I've listened to that, in my personal opinion,  don't offer a definitive answer. 

Here are some links to 2 different, I'll start with just 2:

Cleveland Clinic Statement on Previous COVID-19 Infection Research

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021

8 minutes ago, subee said:

And, just as an aside, even if "deaths were reported, they do not have to have any link with the vaccine.  A lot of these were elderly people who had plenty of other reasons to die.

Absolutely true. I take it you haven’t read my novella above/previous page ⬆️ Or perhaps you’re just clarifying for those who look at my wall of text.. and go ?

Specializes in CRNA, Finally retired.
2 minutes ago, macawake said:

Absolutely true. I take it you haven’t read my novella above/previous page ⬆️ Or perhaps you’re just clarifying for those who look at my wall of text.. and go ?

Yes, the person on these posts who is hesitant may not be a nurse or a nurse who took a research class so hasn't learned to be very skeptical data.  Reading it is never as easy as it seams.  Your novella stands as useful:)

2 hours ago, HJH50 said:

What do you mean by "the vaccine does not kill you, but Covid does?" Per VAERS reporting, in one year COVID vaccines have killed 6,506 people. Of ALL vaccine deaths since 1990 (of which there are 17,132 from 190 vaccine types), COVID vaccines account for 37.97% of all vaccine-related deaths. Moreover, the percent of permanent disability events from COVID vaccines accounts for 28.9% of ALL permanent disabilities from vaccinations. So, forgive me if I am concerned about putting something in my body that has a higher percentage of death and permanent disability than all other vaccinations combined.

From VAERS own website:

Quote

Limitations of VAERS:

It is generally not possible to find out from VAERS data if a vaccine caused the adverse event

Reports submitted to VAERS often lack details and sometimes contains errors

Serious adverse events are more likely to be reported than non-serious events

Numbers of reports may increase in response to media attention and increased public awareness

VAERS data cannot be used to determine rates of adverse events

Anyone can report anything to VAERS whether it's true or whether it's not. People who mistakenly believe a vaccine caused a death or adverse affect can report it. People who have an antivax agenda can outright lie in a report to VAERS. VAERS reports are proof of absolutely nothing. The value in VAERS is indicating a worrisome trend that must be further investigated. 

Anyone who uses VAERS data as you have is either uneducated as to its purpose and limitations or is deliberately gaslighting and will be called out because this kind of misinformation is dangerous to the public.

I'm editing my post because I did not see your responses after your initial post. It seems you fall into the first category above, but there have been plenty of people posting here who fall into the second category. In either instance, it's going to get called out, and I missed the fact that others had already done so. Didn't mean to dogpile.

Specializes in CRNA, Finally retired.
1 hour ago, Horseshoe said:

From VAERS own website:

Anyone can report anything to VAERS whether it's true or whether it's not. People who mistakenly believe a vaccine caused a death or adverse affect can report it. People who have an antivax agenda can outright lie in a report to VAERS. VAERS reports are proof of absolutely nothing. The value in VAERS is indicating a worrisome trend that must be further investigated. 

Anyone who uses VAERS data as you have is either uneducated as to its purpose and limitations or is deliberately gaslighting and will be called out because this kind of misinformation is dangerous to the public.

I'm editing my post because I did not see your responses after your initial post. It seems you fall into the first category above, but there have been plenty of people posting here who fall into the second category. In either instance, it's going to get called out, and I missed the fact that others had already done so. Didn't mean to dogpile.

The chart is just too small for me to see but I wouldn't be surprised if some 16 year old teenage girl blamed her pregnancy on the vaccine:)  What does surprise me is that they even bother to tabulate junk submissions.

Specializes in New Critical care NP, Critical care, Med-surg, LTC.
On 8/14/2021 at 11:32 PM, jive turkey said:

more about justifying taking a vaccine after an infection considering data from different sources offer contrary results or information that is inconclusive

I only have a personal experience to go for this. I had three coworkers that had COVID. One was completely asymptomatic, one had a mild case and one was on a ventilator for a short time. All three had antibody tests at some point after the infection, at least six months after. The coworker that was asymptomatic and the one that got really sick both still had antibodies. The one with a mild case did not. I think for that reason it's hard to make a blanket statement about past infection and potential for re-infection. All three got the vaccine, the one with the severe infection did have a couple pretty sick days after getting it. 

Specializes in A variety.
2 hours ago, BostonFNP said:

Recent study showed that in people previously infected with covid and remained unvaccinated were 2.34 times more likely to be re-infected compared to those that had been previously infected and then had been vaccinated. 

 

It does say "likely" which isn't conclusive. Not a reason to be totally against a jab yet not conclusive enough to eliminate all concerns.  There's another study I shared where none of the participants in the study were reinfected. CDC (among others) cites a reinfection rate of ~1%. I'm interested to learn what percentage of previously infected are hospitalized and dying.  

Anything else you have to offer that would alleviate concerns for those in doubt please share.  

Specializes in A variety.
10 minutes ago, JBMmom said:

I only have a personal experience to go for this. I had three coworkers that had COVID. One was completely asymptomatic, one had a mild case and one was on a ventilator for a short time. All three had antibody tests at some point after the infection, at least six months after. The coworker that was asymptomatic and the one that got really sick both still had antibodies. The one with a mild case did not. I think for that reason it's hard to make a blanket statement about past infection and potential for re-infection. All three got the vaccine, the one with the severe infection did have a couple pretty sick days after getting it. 

Did they say if their antibody tests were quantitative or qualitative? They share the values quantitative?

For the person who had no antibodies, did they say which test they took? Did they retest and confirm? 

3 hours ago, BostonFNP said:

Recent study showed that in people previously infected with covid and remained unvaccinated were 2.34 times more likely to be re-infected compared to those that had been previously infected and then had been vaccinated. 

 

 

1 hour ago, jive turkey said:

It does say "likely" which isn't conclusive. Not a reason to be totally against a jab yet not conclusive enough to eliminate all concerns. 
 

There's another study I shared where none of the participants in the study were reinfected. CDC (among others) cites a reinfection rate of ~1%. I'm interested to learn what percentage of previously infected are hospitalized and dying.  

Anything else you have to offer that would alleviate concerns for those in doubt please share.  

I think that ”2.34 times more likely” was just how BostonFNP worded his/her post. 
 

Isn’t this the report that you yourself linked in your OP?


https://www.CDC.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm
 

What I see when I read it is this (Summary):

”In this case control-study, being unvaccinated was associated with 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with being fully vaccinated”.

Further down it also says:

”Kentucky residents who were not vaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated (odds ratio [OR] = 2.34; 95% confidence interval [CI] = 1.58-3.47).


This is the actual result of the study. In the study they actually had these odds and you can see the span of the confidence intervall. You shouldn’t interpret the numbers as a likelihood or guesswork.

 

When you refer to a study that showed ~1% reinfection rate (I haven’t read it in detail myself), did you notice how long the time period they studied the amount of reinfections was? Did 1% in that study get reinfected in a month, three months, a year? (A year isn’t likely). How long since the study participants had been diagnosed with Covid-19? Mean time (for example five months and range, for example 2-10 months? Was the study conducted before the emergence of the Delta variant or was the dominating variant still Alpha? 

I’ve noticed that you’ve asked several times if anybody has information regarding the percentage of unvaccinated individuals who are being reinfected, hospitalized and dying. I don’t really understand why the exact number is important. It is likely not a static situation. Since this is a coronavirus, it is very likely that immunity will wane with time. It’s a logical assumption that reinfections will increase as time passes if one chooses to not vaccinate and instead trust the immunity of a previous infection. That immunity might not age gracefully.

A person could either get the vaccine and subsequent boosters when and if those are necessary, or they can play a numbers game, follow the developing research on a very regular basis, and vaccinate whenever their personal ”risk threshold” is reached. To me that seems like a very time-consuming and unnecessary exercise (and gamble) seeing as we do have safe and effective vaccines available.

Do you have a personal tipping point where you will feel that it makes sense for you to get vaccinated? Like 35% reinfections per year, a third of that group getting hospitalized and let’s say, 15% of the hospitalized group dying? This is a serious question.

3 hours ago, HJH50 said:

I appreciate the perspectives! Thank you for sharing - I do feel a bit better now.

I am really glad that we could be of some assistance and that you feel a bit less worried now. I also appreciate you taking the time to make this post and offer feedback.

Take care!

Specializes in New Critical care NP, Critical care, Med-surg, LTC.
1 hour ago, jive turkey said:

Did they say if their antibody tests were quantitative or qualitative? They share the values quantitative?

It was just a positive/negative antibody test. No confirmation testing was done. Maybe my input wasn't helpful, sorry. 

Specializes in A variety.
1 hour ago, macawake said:

 

#1-I think that ”2.34 times more likely” was just how BostonFNP worded his/her post. 
 

Isn’t this the report that you yourself linked in your OP?


#2 This is the actual result of the study. In the study they actually had these odds and you can see the span of the confidence intervall. You shouldn’t interpret the numbers as a likelihood or guesswork.

 

#3When you refer to a study that showed ~1% reinfection rate (I haven’t read it in detail myself), did you notice how long the time period they studied the amount of reinfections was?

#4 Do you have a personal tipping point where you will feel that it makes sense for you to get vaccinated? Like 35% reinfections per year, a third of that group getting hospitalized and let’s say, 15% of the hospitalized group dying? This is a serious question.

First, thank you for engaging this discussion offering a differing viewpoint civilly. There's been those unable to refrain from personal attacks, making presumptions, and being overall argumentative with no constructive feedback.  I truncated your reply a bit so I could answer you easier. 

#1 yes I did cite that reference.  I'm not totally opposed to vaccination and consider all valid sources of information. 

#2 I don't consider it guesswork.  Speaking in terms of likelihood leaves room to question but not necessarily refuse.  

#3 the Cleveland clinic link I provides covered a 5 month span. No reinfections.  Here's a link from the CDC referencing a 1 year study about reinfections:

https://www.CDC.gov/library/covid19/06112021_covidupdate.html

#4 that is a good and smart question.  I would compare hospitalizations and deaths of previously infected to the vaccinated, what percentage of reinfected are admitted/dying with consideration of the demographics of those affected,  personal health history, and the advice of a physician that is familiar with the PCR+ patient. 

To loosely answer your question without being fully committed to any one number,  because it's not that simple as described in the previous paragraph, hypothetically 10 to 20% reinfected with admissions/deaths might sway me. 

 

Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
22 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

 

To loosely answer your question without being fully committed to any one number,  because it's not that simple as described in the previous paragraph, hypothetically 10 to 20% reinfected with admissions/deaths might sway me

I wonder what the odds of that are. I'm more inclined to believe that by the time that is achieved there will be another or slightly different dataset suggested, that might better sway you.  

The current data and expert analysis indicate that no harm will result from vaccinating after infection and that improved immune response is achieved for most who do get vaccinated against the possibility of reinfection.  The recommendation is for all eligible adults to vaccinate, ASAP, in an attempt to significantly reduce community spread, illness and death or disability.  

Please vaccinate at your earliest opportunity.  

Please continue to use mitigation strategies in public spaces.  We beat this by working together to slow the spread of the virus.  Not by finding excuses not to. 

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