Vaccination Mandating

pclaybrooke, RN, NP · Sep 22, 2021

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I'm oddly surprised and a bit curious as to the ideas presented here. People are mentioning cases, inundations of hospitals, economic windfalls, etc. I haven't seen anyone challenge the efficacy of RT-PCR testing, nor the conflicts of interests (COIs) surrounding those tests, the COIs within the FDA and the funding they receive, or even the fact that we are testing asymptomatic people. The 2006 swineflu "pandemic" ended up being a "casedemic," ultimately due to the use of PCR testing. So, it's very difficult for me to support a governmental mandate, state or federal, to be placed on people when the analyses are faulty. I won't begin to mention the unconstitutionality of it.

If we continue to tread down this path of collusion between the pharma, medical, and governmental bodies, we will not like the outcome. The shear censorship of researchers and medical professionals to be able to even state their opinions without being shut down, is VERY concerning. giving me "thought police" vibes. For a population of professionals that "follow the science," we seem to lean towards the "sciences" that suit our personal beliefs, leaving objectivity to the back burner, ultimately allowing very important voices to not only go unheard, but purposely silenced”.

Very well said. I agree 100%.

toomuchbaloney · Sep 22, 2021

3 minutes ago, pclaybrooke said:

“

I'm oddly surprised and a bit curious as to the ideas presented here. People are mentioning cases, inundations of hospitals, economic windfalls, etc. I haven't seen anyone challenge the efficacy of RT-PCR testing, nor the conflicts of interests (COIs) surrounding those tests, the COIs within the FDA and the funding they receive, or even the fact that we are testing asymptomatic people. The 2006 swineflu "pandemic" ended up being a "casedemic," ultimately due to the use of PCR testing. So, it's very difficult for me to support a governmental mandate, state or federal, to be placed on people when the analyses are faulty. I won't begin to mention the unconstitutionality of it.

If we continue to tread down this path of collusion between the pharma, medical, and governmental bodies, we will not like the outcome. The shear censorship of researchers and medical professionals to be able to even state their opinions without being shut down, is VERY concerning. giving me "thought police" vibes. For a population of professionals that "follow the science," we seem to lean towards the "sciences" that suit our personal beliefs, leaving objectivity to the back burner, ultimately allowing very important voices to not only go unheard, but purposely silenced”.

Very well said. I agree 100%.

Baloney

SmilingBluEyes · Sep 22, 2021

3 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Baloney

Agree 100%. Baloney.

pclaybrooke, RN, NP · Sep 22, 2021

2 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

3 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

The nurses remain in the employment market. Their place of employment is what may change as it is unlikely that most can afford to remain unemployed for this reason. Any vacancies will be filled by other nurses in the market who would like to change jobs, maybe a step up. It will be expensive and stressful for the hospitals and dangerous for patients, and honestly, it's difficult for me to understand the cultural influences that are causing nurses to choose this way.

Many of the nurses who have left the field have reestablished with non mandating facilities, so you are right in the sense that it’s going to be more expensive stressful and dangerous for not only hospitals, but also nursing homes and rural health community centers. So why continue to mandate it, unless you think that you will lose more lives to Covid then you will staff shortages and the closing of facilities like nursing homes and rural clinics. Time will tell right? I think it was a bad idea for some hospitals to let go of LVN’s from the and I think mandating the vaccine is just another bad idea, but that’s my opinion, not fact.

allnurses Guide · Sep 23, 2021

On 9/22/2021 at 3:30 PM, nursej22 said:

Interesting. On my brief trips to California, they seemed very profit-oriented. Not exactly in line with communism.

This is not communism which is a a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.

PS a hospital can't make a profit if the nurses are all sick

SmilingBluEyes · Sep 23, 2021

None of this is communism!

MunoRN, RN · Sep 23, 2021

1 hour ago, listless reads said:

Thanks for the welcome.

What I am saying is documented positives from a test that was designed for manufacturing, and is now being displayed as "gold standard" despite plethora of data to suggest inaccuracies for its use as a diagnostic tool, is a grave disservice to the people we serve.

We never diagnose a patient's illness without a multitude of angles with which to quantify that diagnosis. To hospitalize people that are asymptomatic and to quantify a pandemic solely from case numbers from these tests is irresponsible. And then to parade the data as though it is not at all debatable is negligent.

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you contending that the high rate of hospitalizations due to Covid is because we are hospitalizing asymptomatic people?

RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P · Sep 23, 2021

1 hour ago, toomuchbaloney said:

The nurses remain in the employment market. Their place of employment is what may change as it is unlikely that most can afford to remain unemployed for this reason. Any vacancies will be filled by other nurses in the market who would like to change jobs, maybe a step up. It will be expensive and stressful for the hospitals and dangerous for patients, and honestly, it's difficult for me to understand the cultural influences that are causing nurses to choose this way.

"Any vacancies will be filled by other nurses in the market who would like to change jobs, maybe a step up."

No, actually, that is not what is happening now. That would be in the perfect, ideal world. That may have been how it was in the 80's, 90's and 2000's. That is definitely not reality in 2021. One need only go to the Careers tab on any given hospital web site to see the plethora of openings or speak to recruiters.

listless reads · Sep 23, 2021

37 minutes ago, MunoRN said:

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you contending that the high rate of hospitalizations due to Covid is because we are hospitalizing asymptomatic people?

In a way, Yes, but not entirely. That's not my contention exactly. My point is that the PCR test is faulty and is being misused. I haven't seen/read studies relating to Covid that used other means of measuring data outside PCR tests, or even sVNT tests. I'm still remaining as objective as possible, hoping there will be a different means by which tests are conducted, although I'm not holding my breath.

It seems like the scientific community is just going to keep using these tests despite the COIs. It even gets as interesting as researchers not disclosing their affiliations with companies involved in the testing in some of these studies. Yet we continue to use PCR tests to diagnose when they were created for manufacturing. If the tests are faulty, why wouldn't the data be? just posing questions.

MunoRN, RN · Sep 23, 2021

22 minutes ago, listless reads said:

In a way, Yes, but not entirely. That's not my contention exactly. My point is that the PCR test is faulty and is being misused. I haven't seen/read studies relating to Covid that used other means of measuring data outside PCR tests, or even sVNT tests. I'm still remaining as objective as possible, hoping there will be a different means by which tests are conducted, although I'm not holding my breath.

It seems like the scientific community is just going to keep using these tests despite the COIs. It even gets as interesting as researchers not disclosing their affiliations with companies involved in the testing in some of these studies. Yet we continue to use PCR tests to diagnose when they were created for manufacturing. If the tests are faulty, why wouldn't the data be? just posing questions.

I'm not following what you mean by "they were created for manufacturing", or how any supposed conflicts of interest might affect their results.

Although better than rapid tests, Covid PCR tests do produce false negatives, but no there is no evidence they produce false positives, at least to any meaningful degree. This is why particularly asymptomatic cases are likely undercounted, it appears very unlikely they are over counted given the rarity of false positives.

Early on in the pandemic tests were extremely scarce in the US so we went by clinical criteria, which is still probably the most reliable way to diagnose symptomatic infection. The constellation of findings with Covid (imaging, symptoms, labs,etc) are extremely unique to Covid.

toomuchbaloney · Sep 23, 2021

2 hours ago, pclaybrooke said:

So why continue to mandate it, unless you think that you will lose more lives to Covid then you will staff shortages and the closing of facilities like nursing homes and rural clinics.

Continue to mandate because unvaccinated people in our communities are the life blood of the pandemic that we are trying to starve. We need to keep unvaccinated people away from our vulnerable neighbors. Covid is dangerous and is killing people already. Mandates will result in higher vaccination rates.

toomuchbaloney · Sep 23, 2021

1 hour ago, RJMDilts said:

"Any vacancies will be filled by other nurses in the market who would like to change jobs, maybe a step up."

No, actually, that is not what is happening now. That would be in the perfect, ideal world. That may have been how it was in the 80's, 90's and 2000's. That is definitely not reality in 2021. One need only go to the Careers tab on any given hospital web site to see the plethora of openings or speak to recruiters.

I know two nurses who accepted different positions in the past 15 months because of covid. One in the midwest and one in a gulf state. Both viewed the positions changes as career opportunities. One moved into OB the other into ICU.

We are in the middle of a pandemic. Several thousand health care workers died from covid in 2020, they need to be replaced. Hospitals are running at higher occupancy than they staffed for prepandemic. As long as we continue to maintain relatively large groups of unvaccinated people in communities across the county our hospitals will have staffing issues.

I live in Alaska. My governor just initiated a statewide crisis level of triage for our medical care because there are not enough resources to accommodate the needs of the sick people. There aren't enough nurses...there are no mandates for health care workers to be vaccinated. The mandates for new employees aren't responsible for our staffing shortages.

I believe that mandates will result in increased vaccination.