Vaccination Mandating

OUxPhys, BSN, RN · Sep 19, 2021

On 9/17/2021 at 8:24 PM, pclaybrooke said:

Communist in the form of dictating or mandating “you will do this or else” from the presidents mouth or businesses and hospitals will be fined. Puts places in a hard spot which will not work for the American businesses and health care agencies in the past. To be fair the president did say that people could also be tested weekly, but hospitals are not implementing this and that’s why there is a huge loss of nurses.

things can be highly recommended, but to mandate “or else” is not what we do in America and there is evidence on both sides for and against vaccination that is actually very valid, more studies once again from Israel and London have seemed to bring about some good evidence for the unvaccinated and vaccinated and both of these areas have been highly vaccinated. I think there is evidence of pros and cons on both sides of this discussion of vaccinated and unvaccinated, so to draw a line on everyone should vaccinate seems scientifically unresponsible. What about those who have the antibodies? Haven’t heard a word about this. And why are the vaccinated even worried about the unvaccinated if they are protected?

just thoughts

So you are against the military mandating vaccines and public schools mandating vaccines?

pclaybrooke, RN, NP · Sep 19, 2021

Yes I am against mandating. I have no problem with highly recommending, but mandating “or else” is taking away the ability of choice and that’s a freedom many have fought long and hard for.

OUxPhys, BSN, RN · Sep 19, 2021

3 minutes ago, pclaybrooke said:

Yes I am against mandating. I have no problem with highly recommending, but mandating “or else” is taking away the ability of choice and that’s a freedom many have fought long and hard for.

Interesting. So you're comfortable with making the military vulnerable to disease as well as school children and bringing back diseases like smallpox and polio all in the name of freedom eh?

Well, as a vet I didn't join to fight for your freedom to refuse a vaccine and endanger the general population. People get this whole "join to defend my freedom to make choices" twisted. They joined to defend the Constitution, which does not mention freedom to choose. Even George Washington saw the value of vaccination and mandated his men get vaccinated against smallpox.

pclaybrooke, RN, NP · Sep 19, 2021

Are we comparing Covid to smallpox? That’s interesting. You need to review all the literature my friend, I recommend the good amount of research produced by Israel and England and not the bias of the social media on both sides. So, again, what I am saying is that people should have the right to choose and not just following the media mindlessly based on their inaccurate statistics.

So, by your statement of the unvaccinated endangering the whole population, that definitely doesn’t make sense as we have many who have antibodies and others who have been vaccinated. Statistically the majority of the population have very general symptoms, but general symptoms won’t get media attention. Sadly there are many who have died, but if you look at the latest results from Australia and England their is a high percentage of those in the hospital who are fully vaccinated and another percent that are unvaccinated without antibodies. So, as medical professionals both you and I need to draw back the anger and drive deeper into the facts on both sides.

toomuchbaloney · Sep 19, 2021

3 minutes ago, pclaybrooke said:

So, again, what I am saying is that people should have the right to choose and not just following the media mindlessly based on their inaccurate statistics.

People DO have the right to choose. The people most likely to be mindlessly following inaccurate statistics from social media are found among those choosing to refuse vaccination.

MunoRN, RN · Sep 19, 2021

12 minutes ago, pclaybrooke said:

Are we comparing Covid to smallpox? That’s interesting. You need to review all the literature my friend, I recommend the good amount of research produced by Israel and England and not the bias of the social media on both sides. So, again, what I am saying is that people should have the right to choose and not just following the media mindlessly based on their inaccurate statistics.

So, by your statement of the unvaccinated endangering the whole population, that definitely doesn’t make sense as we have many who have antibodies and others who have been vaccinated. Statistically the majority of the population have very general symptoms, but general symptoms won’t get media attention. Sadly there are many who have died, but if you look at the latest results from Australia and England their is a high percentage of those in the hospital who are fully vaccinated and another percent that are unvaccinated without antibodies. So, as medical professionals both you and I need to draw back the anger and drive deeper into the facts on both sides.

It seems like you are just vaguely casting doubt whether Covid is a serious as it's though to be, and whether large scale vaccination is indeed beneficial.

I would argue if you are going to make those sorts of implied claims, there's a responsibility to properly source those claims, otherwise that's a bit irresponsible.

pclaybrooke, RN, NP · Sep 19, 2021

I completely agree. I will use 3 videos with sourced information and then I will also add articles tomorrow with sourced information.

Majority of the information is on the multiple ways to effectively and efficiently address Covid including the use of Ivermectin and the many with antibodies and the recent report from Israel (who has a huge number of vaccinated) stating “Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine—but vaccination remains vital (for those who do not have antibodies)

“Israelis who had an infection were more protected against the Delta coronavirus variant than those who had an already highly effective COVID-19 vaccine”

https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital

another article out of England noted: “there are some rare risks associated with the vaccines – rare blood clots connected with the AstraZeneca vaccine and the risk of myocarditis (heart inflammation) in the case of the Pfizer vaccine are just two”.

we actually have had patients in our clinic who have side effects from the vaccine and others who have had lost viral chronic fatigue without taking the vaccine. Some across the United States have died unvaccinated and some have died vaccinated. I would like to see some honest statistics on that as I know certain comorbidities have played a bigger role in susceptibility such as obesity it seems. Also, I would like to see some more research into why a husband and spouse who have Covid and are around each other have drastically varying symptoms - possibly a deeper look into the role that blood type or certain immunotherapies may play into this - as we have had every scenario where we have where both parties are vaccinated, both are unvaccinated or one is and one isn’t and in many of those cases I don’t see lesser symptomology with a vaccinated individual than an unvaccinated individual, but we are also very aggressive with Therapies that seem to work very well and have been originated from other specialists - especially with many who are already very immune compromised.

My argument in the midst of all the pros and cons is still for the right of one to choose.

OUxPhys, BSN, RN · Sep 19, 2021

50 minutes ago, pclaybrooke said:

Are we comparing Covid to smallpox? That’s interesting. You need to review all the literature my friend, I recommend the good amount of research produced by Israel and England and not the bias of the social media on both sides. So, again, what I am saying is that people should have the right to choose and not just following the media mindlessly based on their inaccurate statistics.

So, by your statement of the unvaccinated endangering the whole population, that definitely doesn’t make sense as we have many who have antibodies and others who have been vaccinated. Statistically the majority of the population have very general symptoms, but general symptoms won’t get media attention. Sadly there are many who have died, but if you look at the latest results from Australia and England their is a high percentage of those in the hospital who are fully vaccinated and another percent that are unvaccinated without antibodies. So, as medical professionals both you and I need to draw back the anger and drive deeper into the facts on both sides.

Now you're moving the goalposts. COVID is an infectious disease (as are the ones I mentioned above). Your whole argument is the loss of freedom to choose. So if you are pro-choice for covid vaccination one can assume you are pro-choice for the other vaccinations as well (which I have already said are mandated by law for public school and the military so Im not sure what the issue is with covid vax being mandated).

I don't need to review the literature. There are scientists and doctors who already do that for us. I also don't get my medical advice from social media. As for the vaccine the whole point is to reduce symptoms, prevent hospitalization and death. It was never said you won't get covid with the vaccine.

MunoRN, RN · Sep 19, 2021

1 hour ago, pclaybrooke said:

I completely agree. I will use 3 videos with sourced information and then I will also add articles tomorrow with sourced information.

Majority of the information is on the multiple ways to effectively and efficiently address Covid including the use of Ivermectin and the many with antibodies and the recent report from Israel (who has a huge number of vaccinated) stating “Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine—but vaccination remains vital (for those who do not have antibodies)

“Israelis who had an infection were more protected against the Delta coronavirus variant than those who had an already highly effective COVID-19 vaccine”

https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital

another article out of England noted: “there are some rare risks associated with the vaccines – rare blood clots connected with the AstraZeneca vaccine and the risk of myocarditis (heart inflammation) in the case of the Pfizer vaccine are just two”.

we actually have had patients in our clinic who have side effects from the vaccine and others who have had lost viral chronic fatigue without taking the vaccine. Some across the United States have died unvaccinated and some have died vaccinated. I would like to see some honest statistics on that as I know certain comorbidities have played a bigger role in susceptibility such as obesity it seems. Also, I would like to see some more research into why a husband and spouse who have Covid and are around each other have drastically varying symptoms - possibly a deeper look into the role that blood type or certain immunotherapies may play into this - as we have had every scenario where we have where both parties are vaccinated, both are unvaccinated or one is and one isn’t and in many of those cases I don’t see lesser symptomology with a vaccinated individual than an unvaccinated individual, but we are also very aggressive with Therapies that seem to work very well and have been originated from other specialists - especially with many who are already very immune compromised.

My argument in the midst of all the pros and cons is still for the right of one to choose.

That's what I'm referring to. Your statement suggests the risk of death is similar whether you've been vaccinated or not. We could certainly quibble over exactly how much risk decreases with vaccination, but the two are not comparable even in broad general terms.

Guest 1152923 · Sep 19, 2021

I'm all for personal choice but how about this; If one declines the vaccine, one must also agree to strictly self-quarantine on an indefinite basis. No going to public areas/forums-I.e. work, stores... where my (or anyone else's) elderly, frail, and vaccinated (but still susceptible) loved ones may be. Also, no having contact with your family and friends, who may unknowingly transfer the virus. I look at it like smoking. If you want to chain smoke nonstop day and night, great! have at it, enjoy! However, the very second that your smoke enters my nose or I have to help subsidize your healthcare for preventable illnesses, you forfeit that right.

pclaybrooke, RN, NP · Sep 20, 2021

But that is the argument isn’t it? If you are vaccinated then why are you even worried about the unvaccinated. If I am vaccinated, by just general definition, the. The moment that disease hits my system the blood cells should figure out what’s going on quickly and attack. The problem is that this vaccine was rolled out quickly without years of trial (and understandably since it was under an emergency basis), but still I think it’s not responsible to make claims for it being “safe for so many” when it has not been tested for more than a year barely. I really do help it is safe and years down the road people don’t regret getting it. I have family who had gotten vaccinated, and so far so good and again I hope months down the road it stays that way.

queenanneslace, ADN, MSN, APRN, CNM · Sep 20, 2021

Quote

If you are vaccinated then why are you even worried about the unvaccinated.

Because it's a population strategy, not an individual one. High rates of unvaccinated people in a community cause harm to all of us: in terms of not only illness and suffering, but overwhelming hospitals, closing schools, rendering our society semi-defunct.

One thing that has been solidified for me over the last year and a half, is how inadequate our public health education is in the nursing profession. We should all understand the principles of public health, but we don't.