This is sick

[tmiller027]

I'm watching an OLD episode of Chicago Hope on Discovery Health channel. This episode, a doctor went to court to try and have a morphine drip increased for a patient in a vegitative state up to a fatal dose.

What I found disturbing was one...at one point, the doctor ordered a nurse to adminster it, and she refused. He then proceded to scream and yell at her. Her nurse supervisor told her "Don't you see what you've done? This is done in silence all the time, but now its on the record!"

The doctors said the same thing, how euthanaisa goes on every day in the U.S. with a "wink" between Dr's and families. Has anyone ever heard of this? I'm almost halfway through an ADN program, have worked a year as a CNA and know lots of doctors and nurses and have never heard of this. I just found it highly disturbing. I don't like to see people suffer, but I also don't like to see doctors playing God either.

[Fiona59]

Cyclis is for hydration, used in palliative and nursing homes. Its's inserted sub q usually in an area that is fatty and solution is run in.

Falwell sounds like he saw the documentary "The Dying Rooms". It was about how orphanages in China were letting "sick" infants die with minimal intervention. I guess it was happening before the government over there realized that overseas adoptions were a good money earner.

The document was on CBC and I think was by either the BBC or ITV(Panorama).

[apaisRN, RN, CRNA]

Oh, okay - my cat had clysis once. Got dehydrated in summer and quit eating, and the vet sort of filled the space between his spine and skin with fluid. He leaked a bit for a day, it was kind of funny. Why was this considered better for babies than IVF?

[Gompers, BSN, RN]

Oh, okay - my cat had clysis once. Got dehydrated in summer and quit eating, and the vet sort of filled the space between his spine and skin with fluid. He leaked a bit for a day, it was kind of funny. Why was this considered better for babies than IVF?

It's a lot easier to inject a bolus sub-q than to try and get an IV in a baby. My cat also had cylsis done once and I watched. The vet told me himself that they used to do it for newborns as well, and what struck me was that it was much easier than finding a vein! Of course, it takes a day or so to absorb all that fluid, so while it's good for hydration, it's not so hot for combatting hypotension and hypovolemia.

[Rhoresmith]

I worked hospice as an aide for a long time and I saw many many clients screamining in pain. It is the most horrifing thing I have ever witnessed. Doctor refuses more pain medication becasue it could kill patient. NO ONE DESERVES TO SUFFER THAT WAY. I don't believe in killing them with a lethal dose of something just because they are dying but ease their pain. Most have suffered so long with chemo and surgeries ect that they deserve to die as pain free as possible. Sorry will get off my soap box touchy touchy subject with me

[SmilingBluEyes]

I worked hospice as an aide for a long time and I saw many many clients screamining in pain. It is the most horrifing thing I have ever witnessed. Doctor refuses more pain medication becasue it could kill patient. NO ONE DESERVES TO SUFFER THAT WAY. I don't believe in killing them with a lethal dose of something just because they are dying but ease their pain. Most have suffered so long with chemo and surgeries ect that they deserve to die as pain free as possible. Sorry will get off my soap box touchy touchy subject with me

one of my greatest fears is watching a loved one die in horrible pain

or dying that way myself.

[barefootlady, ADN, RN]

I know that many a terminal patient is helped into death by various means of drug therapy. It is usually with the family in full agreement and usually the patient has stated or signed a living will. I have not spent all these years in nursing without seeing a few things I may not have agreed with and I have refused to follow certain orders, telling the doctor he can do it but not me, my license was too dear to risk. But, as I stated, Reverend Falwell was preaching and presenting on the public airways, that in TODAY's modern medical facilities nurses and doctors are in agreement to practice euthanesia on medically complex infants. Why would a facility have a NICU if this was the case? We all know many infants who are in NICU have years of medical care facing them and their families. We know that some families elect to stop treatment after a certain point, BUT I am furious that this man would present to the public that nurses and doctors are nothing but paid killers. I have seen the documentaries on care of children in China, India, and other third world countries, but Reverend Falwell is stating this is going on today in places like Richmond, Virginia, Chicago, Illnois, and Phoenix. Arizona. How we as professional nurses can allow these statements to go unanswered is beyond me. Like I said, I plan on writing and letting him know that NO nurse I have ever worked with is guilty of this type of action. NO doctor has ever given me this type of order. NO modern medical facility would risk the damage to their reputation if this practice was made public. And as individuals we would be liable for prosecution. I do plan on telling him that my God demands I forgive his ignorance and if he is ever sick and I was assigned to care for him, I would do my job to the best of my ability. I would, of course, have a witness in the room at all times to testify if any actions were brought by his family since I know his opinion of nurses. :angryfire

[SmilingBluEyes]

Like I said, I would not believe anything Falwell has to say. The man has zero crediblity in my book. I hope his words ARE addressed, but I think he is full of....

nevermind.

[barefootlady, ADN, RN]

It has been my experience that a terminal patient may not have the dose of morphine increased but the frequency he can have the medication is often increased. If he was getting medication every 3 hours it will be ordered at every 2 hours but the same dose. Other drugs may be added to extend the action of the medication. Vistaril, phenergan, toradol, compazine, and many others. Sedatives are usually added and given at a frequent interval. Many of the terminal patients I have taken care of have Dilaudid with morphine given for break-through pain. I hesitate to post this, but in many cases it is the nurse who is angry about giving meds every 2 hours when her patient load is high, and neglects to give the med as often as ordered that contributes to the patient being in more pain than necessary. When I am working, I usually ask the more experienced nurse to look after my terminal patient if I go to lunch or if I am going to be tied up in a room with a doctor. I have rarely been refused by the experienced nurse who knows my goal has been to keep this patient comfortable and allow them to expire with some dignity and peace. I do not want to sound harsh, but where in the world do some of the nurses work that allows patients to suffer this way? If the doctor will not or is not treating the patient effectively, then talk to the supervisor, chief of staff, director of nursing or even the administrator. They know that families are watching every move we make or don't make in times like this. They do not want adverse publicity or gossip. As patient advocates we need to do all we can to insure a respectful death just as we do when the patient is expected to recover.

[SmilingBluEyes]

It has been my experience that a terminal patient may not have the dose of morphine increased but the frequency he can have the medication is often increased. If he was getting medication every 3 hours it will be ordered at every 2 hours but the same dose. Other drugs may be added to extend the action of the medication. Vistaril, phenergan, toradol, compazine, and many others. Sedatives are usually added and given at a frequent interval. Many of the terminal patients I have taken care of have Dilaudid with morphine given for break-through pain. I hesitate to post this, but in many cases it is the nurse who is angry about giving meds every 2 hours when her patient load is high, and neglects to give the med as often as ordered that contributes to the patient being in more pain than necessary. When I am working, I usually ask the more experienced nurse to look after my terminal patient if I go to lunch or if I am going to be tied up in a room with a doctor. I have rarely been refused by the experienced nurse who knows my goal has been to keep this patient comfortable and allow them to expire with some dignity and peace. I do not want to sound harsh, but where in the world do some of the nurses work that allows patients to suffer this way? If the doctor will not or is not treating the patient effectively, then talk to the supervisor, chief of staff, director of nursing or even the administrator. They know that families are watching every move we make or don't make in times like this. They do not want adverse publicity or gossip. As patient advocates we need to do all we can to insure a respectful death just as we do when the patient is expected to recover.

I appreciate your honesty.

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

But have they changed for the better? There is actually a well-regarded medical ethicist who recommends that parents have the option to kill their child until they are 3 mos old!!!!

NurseFirst

Ah, Peter Singer again . . .he isn't well regarded by me. :angryfire

steph

[11:11]

There are a few good points in this post although I feel that those who protray so called death by dosage are just trying to get attention, usually financial.

Ive been a nurse for only four years but I have never seen this done nor have I ever heard anyone speak of it, and Ive listen to and spoken with nurses about many ethical nursing and medical issues. And Ive had to deal with withdrwal of care in the ICU too, with palliative meds given.

The only time I ever had heard it discussed was by some older vietnam veterans, one that was a medic who stated he had seen this overseas in Southeast Asia. I wouldnt be able to confirm this and I mean no disrespect to my brothers (and sisters) who served in that War.

If an MD gave me an order for something like that Id tell him to screw himself. And if he yelled at me he might find me wating for him in the parking lot.

For the students here quit reading those ridiculous nursing novels and read your textbooks!

As far as pain and suffering, I want to die at home, with a good hospice nurse visiting. My family knows not to let me die in a hospital. The also know that Doctors can be fired-

11 out

[NurseFirst]

There are a few good points in this post although I feel that those who protray so called death by dosage are just trying to get attention, usually financial.

For the students here quit reading those ridiculous nursing novels and read your textbooks!

"Nurse" is NOT a novel. And I read it well before I was in nursing school, twice, in fact (and not because I always dreamed of being a nurse; I'd actually forgotten I had read it previously). I have also read a passelfull of books of non-fiction physician books. I grew up around doctors (family friends), and when I read the concept, it seemed like I had heard of the concept before.

I respect that you are in the military, and I thank you for serving our country, risking your life. However, please don't be so quick with the assumptions.

Thanks,

NurseFirst