This is just like flu

Nurses COVID

Published

This is a seasonal respiratory disease. In all likelihood, it will kill 60,000 people.

We deal with this sort of thing annually with influenza, it kills around 60,000 people a year. While that is a lot of people, we don't do anything draconian. There needs to be some kind of balance between disease prevention, and quality of life. We make these choices all the time to create balance. We could ban junk food, or lower (and enforce) speed limits and save 100,000 lives easily.

I have seen some variation of that logic posted here, and it is bewildering. At first I doubted that some posters were actually nurses- it takes a certain amount of critical thinking ability and understanding of math to pass the NCLEX. But, it looks like some are. Though I haven't noticed any of them posting their experience in heavy Covid regions.

This is so wrong, it should not need explanation, but I will try.

For starters, comparing two things because of similar mortality to each other is a specious argument. You could just as accurately say that, best case scenario, Covid 19 will kill as many Americans in one short season as we lost during the Viet Nam war. Oddly, nobody advocating for reducing restrictions makes that comparison.

More important- Comparing Influenza to Covid 19, or putting them next to each other for "perspective" is like comparing a light drizzle to a tsunami based on my personal experience with them. I can go out in a light drizzle for an hour in a windbreaker, and only get a little wet. I can wear $800 worth of goretex for 5 minutes in a tsunami, and I will also get a little wet.

If somebody gets shot with a 9mm while wearing a body armor and only sustained a bruise, they don't then think a 9mm is pretty much like a bb gun.

Plenty of analogies- point is that if we somehow manage to keep the death rates similar, it will have been at the expense of the most massive mitigation effort in human history.

If you want to compare numbers, go with 60,000 vs 2,000,000. Notice the extra zeros. 2,000,000 is the absolute low end of the mortality estimate of what would have happened had we treated these two respiratory viruses as similar. I use this particular number because it was used by Trump and reported by Fox. Seems like most experts think it is a bit low, but I think it is a fine number for comparison.

When nurses here in any way compare, conflate, juxtapose, relate or whatever these two illnesses in any way other than the respiratory component, I do wonder if they actually believe it, or if it is simply for shock value. Either way, I wish it would act like an eject button when they post it. I don't mean that they should be ejected from this forum. I mean like in a cartoon, that when they hit "submit topic", they go sailing through the air.

Specializes in ER.

This is worse than flu, that's obvious. Whether it's sensible to live in fear and shut down society in response, however, is a reasonable thing to discuss.

Everything is relative. Common cold, which can lead to pneumonia, flu, which is even more likely to cause pneumonia, Covid-19, even more severe and dangerous.

Then there is the Black Plague or Ebola, apocalyptic in nature

5 minutes ago, Emergent said:

This is worse than flu, that's obvious. Whether it's sensible to live in fear and shut down society in response, however, is a reasonable thing to discuss.

100%

The discussion needs to be based on the best available information to get our economy moving as quickly as possible in line with our values.

A friend messaged me with this video. I know not everybody likes this guy but there is a ton of good information, presented honestly, by an NYC ED physician who has been front-lining for the last 3 months.

https://m.facebook.com/ZDoggMD/videos/2282708702036409/?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2F407504242094%2Fposts%2F10158099056527095%2F&_rdr

Specializes in Community health.

I agree with you that it is not similar to flu. The deaths are tragic and significant.

We can not stay locked down forever. We can not even stay locked down until there is a vaccine. People are lining up for food and the “food supply is collapsing” (to quote Tyson foods, who are, to be fair, not objective on the matter).

Children, those who are not fortunate enough to have capable and involved parents, are not getting educated. Which is okay for a month or two; but our society believes that people need to be literate, and we can not damn the lower classes to zero education for much longer.

I am pleased to see that we are thinking toward the future— toward reopening, sooner rather than later. I am ready to begin taking those steps.

I think Tyson foods was supremely irresponsible taking that ad out and they knew damn good and well what would happen. It feels like it was a ploy to force a government handout to keep the public from panicking. Sure, their employees don’t want to get sick. Do they think we do? I love some of their products but I am considering boycotting them.

Specializes in Community health.
10 minutes ago, Wuzzie said:

I think Tyson foods was supremely irresponsible taking that ad out and they knew damn good an well what would happen. It feels like it was a ploy to force a government handout to keep the public from panicking. Sure, their employees don’t want to get sick. Do they think we do? I love some of their products but I am considering boycotting them.

Yes agreed, it was a play for attention and money, and it worked.

Specializes in CCU.
On 4/27/2020 at 5:09 PM, juniper222 said:

See the Kern county thread. There are doctors who disagree.

https://www.acep.org/corona/COVID-19/covid-19-articles/acep-aaem-joint-statement-on-physician-misinformation/

On 4/27/2020 at 9:26 AM, Emergent said:

The economic impact on the rest of America is a very big part of this discussion. Economic damage to people will also cause a myriad of Health problems. It's all part of the equation.

There are a lot of people who have a steady income still, weather it is retirement income or that there jobs are unaffected by the shutdown. I'm noticing that those people are more likely to expect others to take a hit, often accusing them of not caring that people are dying. There are a lot of guilt trips being laid on people.

This coronavirus it seems more virulent than influenza. Having said that, it is not wiping out huge portions of the population. It is finishing off people who are already often challenged by multiple health problems. They're not just dying of the coronavirus, they are dying of their chronic illnesses and/or old age.

The initial response was proper. We did not know what we were dealing with. Now we are better informed, and we should move forward to a more moderate approach, that takes into account the economic repercussions that could lead us into a depression.

Personally my vote goes to the best initial response would have been to pay attention to Whitehouse daily intelligence briefings from January through the end of March.

Specializes in Occupational Health; Adult ICU.
On 4/28/2020 at 9:44 PM, Wuzzie said:

A friend messaged me with this video. I know not everybody likes this guy but there is a ton of good information, presented honestly, by an NYC ED physician who has been front-lining for the last 3 months.

https://m.facebook.com/ZDoggMD/videos/2282708702036409/?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2F407504242094%2Fposts%2F10158099056527095%2F&_rdr

I enjoyed it.... but keep that damned tube away from me...

Neat video, ty

18 hours ago, InTheLongRun said:

Personally my vote goes to the best initial response would have been to pay attention to Whitehouse daily intelligence briefings from January through the end of March.

Crazy talk.
Nobody could have predicted this.
You would need the most advances scientific and intelligence apparatus in the world to distill this critical information and deliver it right to your desk on daily basis in order to have known this was coming.
If only such a thing existed.......

On 4/27/2020 at 8:26 AM, Emergent said:

The economic impact on the rest of America is a very big part of this discussion. Economic damage to people will also cause a myriad of Health problems. It's all part of the equation.

There are a lot of people who have a steady income still, weather it is retirement income or that there jobs are unaffected by the shutdown. I'm noticing that those people are more likely to expect others to take a hit, often accusing them of not caring that people are dying. There are a lot of guilt trips being laid on people.

This coronavirus it seems more virulent than influenza. Having said that, it is not wiping out huge portions of the population. It is finishing off people who are already often challenged by multiple health problems. They're not just dying of the coronavirus, they are dying of their chronic illnesses and/or old age.

The initial response was proper. We did not know what we were dealing with. Now we are better informed, and we should move forward to a more moderate approach, that takes into account the economic repercussions that could lead us into a depression.

I call ***. I don't care if a 70 year old has COPD and diabetes. Many of these people have comorbidities and would have still lived for years, getting to see new grand babies etc...That is such a callous way of thinking. "They're on their last leg anyway." No, many aren't. How many people wish for just one more day with a loved one when they pass. Just one day would mean the world, let alone 5, 10 more years that MANY of these people would probably still have left.

Almost a quarter million people have died in just a few months. So what's that about this not wiping out huge portions? ?

On 4/28/2020 at 6:54 PM, hherrn said:

100%

The discussion needs to be based on the best available information to get our economy moving as quickly as possible in line with our values.

Agreed. What's challenging is seeing how different our values are. So, who's values do we go off of?

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