The Nursing School to Welfare Pipeline

[panurse9999]

I am sure many people have heard of the social issue/ cause "school to prison pipeline" that many civic groups are trying to eradicate. I am here to draw attention to a similar related problem , the college to welfare pipeline.

Due to an intricate , intimate, and covert relationship between big government politicos, higher education, Bureau of Occupational affairs, and the Federal/ State Department of labor, we have a serious student debt problem in the nursing field that is only going to get worse. Nurses need to wake up and take note of the LPN to RN hoax, and the RN-BSN hoax. These are all well publicized , propaganda driven falsities that are crushing nurses into debt driven higher education requirements. These propaganda driven requirements brainwash nurses into believing that without the extra education, they will not be employed.

And to a certain degree, they are correct, but its important for nurses to see the pitfall, before taking the dive. There is little to no difference in responsibility or pay rate from LPN to RN, and most RNs are taking the lower wage, just to have a job. There is zero difference in job responsibility or pay from RN to BSN, but the dollars spent to get there are substantial. The RN to BSN pipeline is a grotesque narrative that is being sung, for the sole purpose of enriching nursing schools. The NCLEX exam is identical for RNs and BSNs, the scope of practice is identical, and so are all the pay rates. A staff nurse is a staff nurse, is a staff nurse, too.

So why go for your BSN? Its because the hospitals and other various 24/ 7 institutional care providers say so. They have all built a united wall against the ADN RN. We are becoming an extinct species, because no one will hire us. Is the BSN a job guarantee? Of course not. Is any higher education a job guarantee? Nope. Big government politicos want student debt to skyrocket , so that they can fly in and save everyone with free bailouts, loan forgiveness, and thousands of more votes on election day.

May the buyer beware, until that utopia comes to fruition. In the meantime, take a serious look inward into the pitfalls, tricks and traps of higher education in the nursing field. The powers that be want you to keep jumping hurdles , spending more and more money, hoping to get hired, and falling deeper and deeper into debt, during the process. The higher you jump, the more you spend, and the less you earn. For many nurses who fell for these schemes, the financial devastation has been both swift and severe.

[Nurse Magnolia, BSN, RN]

26 minutes ago, TriciaJ said:

That's one of the points of this thread. ADN programs have not been eliminated. They're economical and their grads are still getting hired. Many nurses are finding that the push for ever more education is not paying off. People are complaining of enormous student loans that they'll barely pay off in their lifetime.

The takeaway for anyone considering an education, nursing or otherwise: how much of an investment will it require and what are the chances of recouping at some point?

And like it or not, the older you are when you start out, the fewer years you have to make your money back. Just something to factor in the decision-making process. And it is good to hear that people can make good careers for themselves at any age. And make a master's degree pay off. Nothing beats sensible planning.

I agree completely. If I had to take out tremendous loans to get my BSN or MSN, I would not do it. I am not going on for a DNP for that very reason and the fact that I won't be able to work enough years to make it worth it. The point of the thread, as you said, is to point out that getting the bigger, better degree - while pushed for by administration and schools - may not be financially worth it depending on your location and financial status. I got a good job with simply a diploma in nursing, although I believe that some of my previous background may have helped me have an edge over a younger applicant. Perhaps the only time being older actually helps. But as I pointed out, most of my graduating class had jobs prior to graduation. But of course, in my area, there are 6 well known and very well respected diploma schools of nursing and employers here jump at a chance to hire grads from any of those. We are an anomaly in that regard since diploma schools have been phased out in many locations. For me, I chose it rather than a second degree BSN because the diploma school had many more clinical hours than the BSN program (alarming in its own right actually).

I think it's good news if there are areas where diploma and ADN's are hired regularly. I wanted to point that out - however, it is true in other areas, you won't get hired without a BSN. That's why people need to do research into the job market where THEY live and not listen to people here who swear it's only one way. I'm glad I did that for sure....

[FolksBtrippin, BSN, RN]

The original post doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see anything factual there. Just alarmism.

RNs make more than LPNs. BSNs do not make more than ADNs but have more options in where they can work. You can make a decent salary in nursing, and the market is definitely not saturated everywhere. In some areas, there are shortages.

Nursing allows for a lot of upward mobility.

That having been said, we should be careful about how much we borrow. We should go in with a full understanding of what the loan repayment will be like.

[Lunah, MSN, RN]

9 hours ago, TriciaJ said:

And it is good to hear that people can make good careers for themselves at any age. And make a master's degree pay off. Nothing beats sensible planning.

I became an ADN/RN at 36 and immediately doubled my paramedic salary. Then my BSN two years later allowed me to seek a commission in the Army (they don't take ADNs). The Army and GI Bill funded my graduate degrees, both of which have paid off in terms of access to higher paying roles and different positions that I couldn't have held otherwise. My part-time teaching job has already paid me more than the cost of that degree. No student loan debt at all. So it can be done, without crippling debt and later in life, with planning as you mention.

But yes, seeing people going in blindly and without a thought to paying the loans makes me want to scream! I spent 10 years working for a government contractor in DC and it sucked the life out of me, so I understand the urge to chuck it all for what one might view as a career helping others (if only we could really do that all day, right?). I became a paramedic in an evening program while working 50+ hours per week and then left my corporate gig (with great pay, bonuses, nice office, etc.) to be an ER tech/paramedic. Huge pay cut. Luckily it all worked out for me, I am happy where I am 16 years later!

ADNs still get hired in Georgia, by the way. I work in an academic facility that prefers BSN, but ADNs are still hired here and in the four other hospitals in the area.

[panurse9999]

I'm not here to argue. I wrote the topic based upon actual real life, witnessed experiences that I have seen for myself and dozens of others in my same exact boat, that have been evolving for years. In fact, I also remember a dozen years ago, the push for the BSN replacing the ADN as the entry level degree. This wasn't an off the cuff, knee jerk rant, its a reality thats hurting the profession. I have known nurses in my area having to leave the state for work. Others have left the field. Others are working as aides. And I have given advice to CNAs that were enrolling in nursing school, not to make the mistake that I did, and to go straight for the BSN, because without it, there are very few work options...at least out here. And to the nurse in the Pittsburgh area, I'd still like to know which hospital system just hired an entire class of ADNs, because that major health system is another one who REQUIRES a BSN, and who has the requirement posted in the job ads.

[umbdude, MSN, APRN]

Becoming a RN is ridiculously affordable with an ADN and then a cheap online RN-BSN. You can't really do that in other professions.

I am also a career changer and only went straight to a BSN because I got into a state university and paid cheap in-state tuition. Otherwise I would've gotten an ADN from a community college then a RN-BSN.

If one chooses to spend $100k on a BSN, that's the person's own choice. A couple folks in my pre-reqs applied to BSN programs that would cost >$100k and I warned them not to do it. They didn't listen and I am certain that they're regretting it now.

There are plenty of nursing jobs out there if you are not dead set on working in large research hospitals.

[panurse9999]

8 minutes ago, umbdude said:

Becoming a RN is ridiculously affordable with an ADN and then a cheap online RN-BSN. You can't really do that in other professions.

I am also a career changer and only went straight to a BSN because I got into a state university and paid cheap in-state tuition. Otherwise I would've gotten an ADN from a community college then a RN-ADN.

If one chooses to spend $100k on a BSN, that's the person's own choice. A couple folks in my pre-reqs applied to BSN programs that would cost >$100k and I warned them not to do it. They didn't listen and I am certain that they're regretting it now.

There are plenty of nursing jobs out there if you are not dead set on working in large research hospitals.

would you be willing to let me know where the "cheap" online RN-BSN programs are? As one of those 2 year RNs (with a BS and MA in other professions that is ignored as useless) , I've been completely locked out of hospital work, due to the fact that all hospitals in my area have joined forces in requiring the BSN for any job. I looked into the distance learning online venues and could not find a single class for under $1,000...classes ranging from $300 to $400 per credit hour.

[panurse9999]

20 minutes ago, umbdude said:

Quote

Becoming a RN is ridiculously affordable with an ADN and then a cheap online RN-BSN. You can't really do that in other professions.

Sorry to disagree here, but I have not seen anything that is "ridiculously affordable" in terms of education, in any field. Especially for the 2nd or 3rd career nurses who have houses and families to support, and lingering student loans, mortgages, car payments and kids. To the contrary, it would take a ridiculous amount of cash on hand to pay for any degree, 2 or 4 year without taking out loans.

[umbdude, MSN, APRN]

5 minutes ago, panurse9999 said:

would you be willing to let me know where the "cheap" online RN-BSN programs are? As one of those 2 year RNs (with a BS and MA in other professions that is ignored as useless) , I've been completely locked out of hospital work, due to the fact that all hospitals in my area have joined forces in requiring the BSN for any job. I looked into the distance learning online venues and could not find a single class for under $1,000...classes ranging from $300 to $400 per credit hour.

I guess we have different definitions of "cheap." A local state college here charge ~$20k for a RN-BSN, which I think it's affordable. You're right that it's rare to find classes under $1k. But ADNs in my area cost $10k if it's a community college...which is really cheap.

Hospital systems in my area don't hire ADNs either. However, there are so many RN jobs outside of hospitals that will hire ADNs. Have you applied to SNFs and rehabs? You can work in these facilities while getting your BSN, then apply for jobs. Although getting a job in large hospital is still difficult no matter what.

[umbdude, MSN, APRN]

1 minute ago, panurse9999 said:

Sorry to disagree here, but I have not seen anything that is "ridiculously affordable" in terms of education, in any field. Especially for the 2nd or 3rd career nurses who have houses and families to support, and lingering student loans, mortgages, car payments and kids. To the contrary, it would take a ridiculous amount of cash on hand to pay for any degree, 2 or 4 year without taking out loans.

You can become an RN with a BSN for ~$30k by getting an ADN first, then BSN. That is cheap relative to other professions especially considering that RNs can make a decent living.

If you have houses, families, or other debts, those are individual factors to consider before a career change.

[caliotter3]

7 hours ago, FolksBtrippin said:

The original post doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see anything factual there. Just alarmism.

RNs make more than LPNs. BSNs do not make more than ADNs but have more options in where they can work. You can make a decent salary in nursing, and the market is definitely not saturated everywhere. In some areas, there are shortages.

Nursing allows for a lot of upward mobility.

That having been said, we should be careful about how much we borrow. We should go in with a full understanding of what the loan repayment will be like.

I can completely agree with the last statement in this post. The person I know who graduated nursing school with a ton of student loan debt and has no nursing license or nursing job to show for it laments the constraints they face for not paying that loan off. I am certain the same situation exists for others who take on student loan debt to pursue a career that never materializes. That is the big takeaway I get from this thread. Be very careful with student loans, period.

[panurse9999]

1 minute ago, umbdude said:

Quote

Hospital systems in my area don't hire ADNs either. However, there are so many RN jobs outside of hospitals that will hire ADNs. Have you applied to SNFs and rehabs? You can work in these facilities while getting your BSN, then apply for jobs. Although getting a job in large hospital is still difficult no matter what.

The SNFs in my area are mostly corporate conglomerates that have a race to the bottom mentality, to stuff the $$$ coffers full, for the top rung fat cats at the highest level of the corporate structure. Translation: they hire 2 year RNs when needed to keep regs in check with the State staffing requirements, which is basically 1 RN in the building at all times. Further translation: they hire LPNs across the board because they cost less, and set them up to fail with 30-1 ratios, when the doctors orders resemble a med-surg unit. If you need a job bad enough, you can likely get one in a SNF, at an LPN rate.

[umbdude, MSN, APRN]

1 minute ago, panurse9999 said:

The SNFs in my area are mostly corporate conglomerates that have a race to the bottom mentality, to stuff the $$$ coffers full, for the top rung fat cats at the highest level of the corporate structure. Translation: they hire 2 year RNs when needed to keep regs in check with the State staffing requirements, which is basically 1 RN in the building at all times. Further translation: they hire LPNs across the board because they cost less, and set them up to fail with 30-1 ratios, when the doctors orders resemble a med-surg unit. If you need a job bad enough, you can likely get one in a SNF, at an LPN rate. 

That's probably true. Keep in mind that it's a job to bridge you over to something better while you're getting the needed credentials. I never worked in SNFs (I'm in psych), but some facilities are better than others. It takes some trial and error and research.