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The Nursing School to Welfare Pipeline

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umbdude, MSN, NP

Specializes in Psych/Mental Health.

Becoming a RN is ridiculously affordable with an ADN and then a cheap online RN-BSN. You can't really do that in other professions.

I am also a career changer and only went straight to a BSN because I got into a state university and paid cheap in-state tuition. Otherwise I would've gotten an ADN from a community college then a RN-BSN.

If one chooses to spend $100k on a BSN, that's the person's own choice. A couple folks in my pre-reqs applied to BSN programs that would cost >$100k and I warned them not to do it. They didn't listen and I am certain that they're regretting it now.

There are plenty of nursing jobs out there if you are not dead set on working in large research hospitals.

8 minutes ago, umbdude said:

Becoming a RN is ridiculously affordable with an ADN and then a cheap online RN-BSN. You can't really do that in other professions.

I am also a career changer and only went straight to a BSN because I got into a state university and paid cheap in-state tuition. Otherwise I would've gotten an ADN from a community college then a RN-ADN.

If one chooses to spend $100k on a BSN, that's the person's own choice. A couple folks in my pre-reqs applied to BSN programs that would cost >$100k and I warned them not to do it. They didn't listen and I am certain that they're regretting it now.

There are plenty of nursing jobs out there if you are not dead set on working in large research hospitals.

would you be willing to let me know where the "cheap" online RN-BSN programs are? As one of those 2 year RNs (with a BS and MA in other professions that is ignored as useless) , I've been completely locked out of hospital work, due to the fact that all hospitals in my area have joined forces in requiring the BSN for any job. I looked into the distance learning online venues and could not find a single class for under $1,000...classes ranging from $300 to $400 per credit hour.

20 minutes ago, umbdude said:
Quote

Becoming a RN is ridiculously affordable with an ADN and then a cheap online RN-BSN. You can't really do that in other professions.

Sorry to disagree here, but I have not seen anything that is "ridiculously affordable" in terms of education, in any field. Especially for the 2nd or 3rd career nurses who have houses and families to support, and lingering student loans, mortgages, car payments and kids. To the contrary, it would take a ridiculous amount of cash on hand to pay for any degree, 2 or 4 year without taking out loans.

umbdude, MSN, NP

Specializes in Psych/Mental Health.

5 minutes ago, panurse9999 said:

would you be willing to let me know where the "cheap" online RN-BSN programs are? As one of those 2 year RNs (with a BS and MA in other professions that is ignored as useless) , I've been completely locked out of hospital work, due to the fact that all hospitals in my area have joined forces in requiring the BSN for any job. I looked into the distance learning online venues and could not find a single class for under $1,000...classes ranging from $300 to $400 per credit hour.

I guess we have different definitions of "cheap." A local state college here charge ~$20k for a RN-BSN, which I think it's affordable. You're right that it's rare to find classes under $1k. But ADNs in my area cost $10k if it's a community college...which is really cheap.

Hospital systems in my area don't hire ADNs either. However, there are so many RN jobs outside of hospitals that will hire ADNs. Have you applied to SNFs and rehabs? You can work in these facilities while getting your BSN, then apply for jobs. Although getting a job in large hospital is still difficult no matter what.

umbdude, MSN, NP

Specializes in Psych/Mental Health.

1 minute ago, panurse9999 said:

Sorry to disagree here, but I have not seen anything that is "ridiculously affordable" in terms of education, in any field. Especially for the 2nd or 3rd career nurses who have houses and families to support, and lingering student loans, mortgages, car payments and kids. To the contrary, it would take a ridiculous amount of cash on hand to pay for any degree, 2 or 4 year without taking out loans.

You can become an RN with a BSN for ~$30k by getting an ADN first, then BSN. That is cheap relative to other professions especially considering that RNs can make a decent living.

If you have houses, families, or other debts, those are individual factors to consider before a career change.

7 hours ago, FolksBtrippin said:

The original post doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see anything factual there. Just alarmism.

RNs make more than LPNs. BSNs do not make more than ADNs but have more options in where they can work. You can make a decent salary in nursing, and the market is definitely not saturated everywhere. In some areas, there are shortages.

Nursing allows for a lot of upward mobility.

That having been said, we should be careful about how much we borrow. We should go in with a full understanding of what the loan repayment will be like.

I can completely agree with the last statement in this post. The person I know who graduated nursing school with a ton of student loan debt and has no nursing license or nursing job to show for it laments the constraints they face for not paying that loan off. I am certain the same situation exists for others who take on student loan debt to pursue a career that never materializes. That is the big takeaway I get from this thread. Be very careful with student loans, period.

1 minute ago, umbdude said:
Quote

Hospital systems in my area don't hire ADNs either. However, there are so many RN jobs outside of hospitals that will hire ADNs. Have you applied to SNFs and rehabs? You can work in these facilities while getting your BSN, then apply for jobs. Although getting a job in large hospital is still difficult no matter what.

The SNFs in my area are mostly corporate conglomerates that have a race to the bottom mentality, to stuff the $$$ coffers full, for the top rung fat cats at the highest level of the corporate structure. Translation: they hire 2 year RNs when needed to keep regs in check with the State staffing requirements, which is basically 1 RN in the building at all times. Further translation: they hire LPNs across the board because they cost less, and set them up to fail with 30-1 ratios, when the doctors orders resemble a med-surg unit. If you need a job bad enough, you can likely get one in a SNF, at an LPN rate.

umbdude, MSN, NP

Specializes in Psych/Mental Health.

1 minute ago, panurse9999 said:

The SNFs in my area are mostly corporate conglomerates that have a race to the bottom mentality, to stuff the $$$ coffers full, for the top rung fat cats at the highest level of the corporate structure. Translation: they hire 2 year RNs when needed to keep regs in check with the State staffing requirements, which is basically 1 RN in the building at all times. Further translation: they hire LPNs across the board because they cost less, and set them up to fail with 30-1 ratios, when the doctors orders resemble a med-surg unit. If you need a job bad enough, you can likely get one in a SNF, at an LPN rate. 

That's probably true. Keep in mind that it's a job to bridge you over to something better while you're getting the needed credentials. I never worked in SNFs (I'm in psych), but some facilities are better than others. It takes some trial and error and research.

4 minutes ago, caliotter3 said:

I can completely agree with the last statement in this post. The person I know who graduated nursing school with a ton of student loan debt and has no nursing license or nursing job to show for it laments the constraints they face for not paying that loan off. I am certain the same situation exists for others who take on student loan debt to pursue a career that never materializes. That is the big takeaway I get from this thread. Be very careful with student loans, period.

Thank you for validating the glaring obvious truth.

1 minute ago, umbdude said:

That's probably true. Keep in mind that it's a job to bridge you over to something better while you're getting the needed credentials. I never worked in SNFs (I'm in psych), but some facilities are better than others. It takes some trial and error and research.

Thats exactly the problem. Pitfalls/tricks/traps of the higher education scam. I have plenty of credentials. 3 degrees. Decades of work experience, and I REFUSE to be told that I need YET ANOTHER degree. I don't. But the powers that be say it is so, so it is. As such, my choices are SNF or homecare. We've also been phased out of doctor's offices, who now hire MAs.

Pixie.RN, MSN, RN, EMT-P

Specializes in EMS, ED, Trauma, CNE, CEN, CPEN, TCRN.

Inexpensive programs: WGU, UTA, and ULL to name three off the top of my head. $6K to $10K for a lot of people I've known.

3 minutes ago, Pixie.RN said:

Inexpensive programs: WGU, UTA, and ULL to name three off the top of my head. $6K to $10K for a lot of people I've known.

I am sorry, but can you name the schools? I am unfamiliar with the abbreviations. Thank you.

klone, MSN, RN

Specializes in Women's Health/OB Leadership.

53 minutes ago, panurse9999 said:

would you be willing to let me know where the "cheap" online RN-BSN programs are? As one of those 2 year RNs (with a BS and MA in other professions that is ignored as useless) , I've been completely locked out of hospital work, due to the fact that all hospitals in my area have joined forces in requiring the BSN for any job. I looked into the distance learning online venues and could not find a single class for under $1,000...classes ranging from $300 to $400 per credit hour.

Western Governor's University

University of Texas, Arlington

Fort Hays University

All three of these programs you can get an RN-BS for under $10,000. At WGU, if you hustle, you can do it for around $6500.

5 minutes ago, panurse9999 said:

I am sorry, but can you name the schools? I am unfamiliar with the abbreviations. Thank you.

I went to California State University Dominguez Hills RN-BSN program and their MSN. I paid in-state tuition. No debt. It can absolutely be done.

Nurse Magnolia, BSN, RN

Specializes in Dialysis RN.

3 hours ago, panurse9999 said:

I'm not here to argue. I wrote the topic based upon actual real life, witnessed experiences that I have seen for myself and dozens of others in my same exact boat, that have been evolving for years. In fact, I also remember a dozen years ago, the push for the BSN replacing the ADN as the entry level degree. This wasn't an off the cuff, knee jerk rant, its a reality thats hurting the profession. I have known nurses in my area having to leave the state for work. Others have left the field. Others are working as aides. And I have given advice to CNAs that were enrolling in nursing school, not to make the mistake that I did, and to go straight for the BSN, because without it, there are very few work options...at least out here. And to the nurse in the Pittsburgh area, I'd still like to know which hospital system just hired an entire class of ADNs, because that major health system is another one who REQUIRES a BSN, and who has the requirement posted in the job ads.

Well, I'm not telling you where I'm working that's for sure, but I will say that I work for one of the major hospital systems in Pittsburgh. There are two major systems and our class was pretty much split between getting jobs at one or the other. And we aren't ADN's. We are diploma prepared. But many of the people on my unit were originally from the local community college and were hired as ADN's as well. The job postings in either Pittsburgh hospital system absolutely DO NOT SAY BSN REQUIRED (unless it's for an upper level job). They may say BSN Preferred, because everyone prefers them. But one hospital system doesn't even say that. Their postings just say "minimum requirements: RN licensure". I don't think you are doing very good research. These things are easily provable with a simple google search.

I understand your frustration...I have two BS degrees that also mean nothing for nursing....and they should. A bachelors degree is two years of general ed and two years of major classes, so to me, a BS degree + RN licensure SHOULD be considered equal to a BSN, but it's not. And that is a money grab I think and is unlike any other profession. Additionally, people with a BS degree and NO RN licensure can get their BSN with taking only one year at a ridiculously priced accelerated one year program, but with two BS degrees and a 2 year diploma program AND my RN license, I still have to take over a year of classes to equal a BSN. It's a racket and I don't like it . But I can either rail against the system, or work within it. I've chosen the latter so I'm going into an RN-MSN program that will have a reasonable enough cost that the loans I have to take are manageable.

I am sorry you've had such a tough time where you live, but instead of banging your head and ego against it (and me for having had a different experience), try to work within it...or leave that area. There clearly are nurses in your area who've gotten jobs out of your programs. See what they are doing. Also, there are plenty of places where you can go from an RN-BSN for 10-15k. That's not bad as far as educational prices go. Get a student loan to get the education to get the job and then pay off the loan. 15k is not difficult to pay off over the long term with a BSN prepared nurses salary. Get a job in a SNF (or anywhere) that offers tuition reimbursement. You seem to be turning down every bit of advice here for how to progress in your career. You will either find every excuse not to do it, or you will do what needs to be done to get where you want to eventually be.

Edited by Jenbripsu

It appears that this very well written topic is being spoil tested by the many dissenting voices who would like the higher education tricks/traps and pitfalls/ hoaxes to continue unabated , undebated, until truth is undone by disinformation.

I have personally seen, spoken to, (witnessed myself) and interacted with RNs who have no desire to return to school for their BSN, online or in classrooms. The gist I am seeing and hearing, is that it is basically a huge pile of money spent, for an online, point and click, mail order degree. The lack of desire to enroll in a RN-BSN online program is found when we have already been working in the hospital systems with our 2 year degree, and sitting behind a computer screen on our precious time off is the last thing we want to do.

Add in the cost of the mail order online degree, at $300-$400 per credit hour, and what you have is a "pay to work" scheme that enriches higher education, but bankrupts the nurse, and seriously detracts from one's ability to function well, while on the job. More specifically, the "do it or lose your job" threat is alive and well in many, if not all of the area hospitals here.

While the BSN is now forced upon us, (if we want to work in hospitals), it falls short of actually adding to our functional abilities , our skill sets, or our scope of practice as staff nurses. You sit behind a computer screen, and point/click your way to a BSN. Many nurses I've had contact with have said they learned nothing new. The costs you must incur to have the magic piece of paper are high, and the differential in pay scale is non-existent. Nursing is learned at the bedside, and that will never change.

What does change is the supply/demand of the nursing workforce, and the fictional job/ career guarantees that higher education will continually feed us.

Pixie.RN, MSN, RN, EMT-P

Specializes in EMS, ED, Trauma, CNE, CEN, CPEN, TCRN.

28 minutes ago, panurse9999 said:

I am sorry, but can you name the schools? I am unfamiliar with the abbreviations. Thank you.

Klone gave you two of them, and ULL is the University of Louisiana at Lafayette. All online, accredited, reputable.

klone, MSN, RN

Specializes in Women's Health/OB Leadership.

It seems that anyone who holds a different opinion from yours regarding the benefits of higher nursing education is going to be accused of being a shill to the education system. Clearly, you're not willing to entertain the idea of "NAPALM" (Not All People Are Like Me) and that even though it's not your personal experience does not make it any less valid or accurate.

I'm telling you, there are many areas in the country where a nurse can get a good job as a new grad in a hospital with just an ADN. And I'm telling you, there are inexpensive BSN programs out there, and they actually DO open doors to more opportunities. Others here are telling you that as well. We hear you loud and clear that that is not your experience. But it doesn't make it any less true.

11 minutes ago, panurse9999 said:

You sit behind a computer screen, and point/click your way to a BSN.

No. I did not "point/click" my way to a BSN. I read and wrote a ton, provided presentations, studied science like pathophys and statistics, and I did 3 semesters of clinicals.

I also did not go bankrupt in the process.

Your experience is not all of our experience.

umbdude, MSN, NP

Specializes in Psych/Mental Health.

18 minutes ago, panurse9999 said:

Decades of work experience, and I REFUSE to be told that I need YET ANOTHER degree. I don't. But the powers that be say it is so, so it is. As such, my choices are SNF or homecare. We've also been phased out of doctor's offices, who now hire MAs.

It's your personal choice to refuse getting more education. It's the hospitals' prerogative to set minimum educational standards. If you don't want to play the game, you won't get the prize.

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