"The Jesus Factor"

FireStarterRN, BSN, RN · Jul 10, 2007

Incidentally, someone mentioned that I, the OP, intended to 'go after someone's job'. I never said that, if you read my posts. I didn't intend to try to get this woman fired, I do think highly of her, even though I don't share her Evangelical approach to Christianity.

My approach is to “Preach the Gospel always and if necessary use words" I'm not saying I carry that out at all times, but with my patients I do behave according to the Gospel. Back at the nurses station is another story.

EmmaG, RN · Jul 10, 2007

but, according to the parable of the sheep and goats, in order to be saved we must serve christ by serving the least of us, which are the weak, the prisoners, the sick, the stranger. it doesn't state anything about converting them. also, the lord's prayer, the prayer that jesus taught up, teaches us "forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive the tresspasses of others" this implies that forgiveness comes as we ourselves learn to forgive.
matthew 25:31-46 nab
31 14 "when the son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 he will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 then the king will say to those on his right, 'come, you who are blessed by my father. inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 for i was hungry and you gave me food, i was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' 37 then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 when did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' 40 and the king will say to them in reply, 'amen, i say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 17 then he will say to those on his left, 'depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 for i was hungry and you gave me no food, i was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 44 18 then they will answer and say, 'lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' 45 he will answer them, 'amen, i say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' 46 and these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

my favorite passage, and one i try to live up to.

thank you for posting this :)

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Jul 10, 2007

To teeituptom: you might not see any issues if you are of the same minds-set or belief system as the patient laying there....but what if this over-zealous "Jesus-Factor" nurse decides that it is HER duty as a God fearing Christian to convert the dying Muslim man, or the Jewish woman? Do you see any issues with that??? This kind of overbearance is insulting to some.....tantamount to serving pork to a Jew, or a female nurse touching the hand of a male Muslim, (in some sects this is seen as inappropriate and sexual in connotation....non-muslims are after all, seen as unclean...infidels)....so THERE ARE BIG ISSUES HERE.
Again, this is an un-welcomed intrusion on someone's very intimate and valuable time, not unlike an intrusive unwanted hug....this is wrong....and it doesn't matter that she thinks she's doing God's work, she's not doing God's work.....she is imposing HER will and belief system on someone else, which if you look at that simplistically, is no different than trying to control another's spirit....which in biblical terms is not of God....'NOT MY WILL, BUT THINE BE DONE'.....
One thing that has always really bothered me about some evangelical Christians is that they like to pick and choose which parts of the Bible they decide to practice, which parts they like to ignore.....
Some of what is preached from very "successful" pulpits in Christian circles would have people believing that to NOT intrude is being a wimp Christian. These same will use fact and fiction, intermingle them as if TRUTH, and call it Gospel....to achieve their 'goal', which is to build huge churches like Saddleback, for instance, or WillowCreek....all in an outward appearance of being 'successful'.....but in nearly all of these examples, they are remarkably similar to the Church of Laodicea as mentioned in the book of Revelations....they are neither cold nor hot.....and they will be spewed out of His mouth....
Some who buy into the "Jesus Factor" of ministry, are deceived into believing that this is what being a good Christian is all about....nothing could be further from the truth....The truth is, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A 'GOOD CHRISTIAN'.....we are all as filthy rags in comparison to His holiness...and there is nothing WE can do on our own steam that bridges this....it never was and never will be about OUR SELVES....if anyone ever says "Jesus Factor squared away" to me, it is a clear sign they have no clue and very little respect for the holiness of One Life who was blameless.....it cheapens the very fabric of His life...and that sickens me...(this is how I feel...and what I believe)
When someone intrusively barrels into your room, on your deathbed, and decides you need to 'come to Jesus', isn't that imposing THEIR will on you, and not invoking a spirit of peace, respect, and comfort?
Now, for all the believers out there......
Who/what sort of "spirit" does this type of behaviour have it's root in???
St. Paul said "test the spirits".....I think this is one time when that is a wise and helpful decision.
crni

I dont see a consensus of issues here. Not everyone agrees to what the issue is. They are all different.

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Jul 10, 2007

Yes to me there is such a thing as a "Good Christian" I also believe there is such a thing as a "Good Muslim' Yes there is also such a thing as a "Good Budhist" I also believe there is such a thing as a 'Good Jewish person" If I left anyone out I apologize.

CRNI-ICU20 · Jul 10, 2007

Tom....your statement wasn't "consensus".....your statement was "I don't see any issues here...."

Well, some of us here see big issues with a "Jesus Factor" nurse proselytizing while on the job as "her mission".....because NOT ALL PATIENTS ARE RECEPTIVE TO THIS...as evidenced by the MANY people here who have been on the receiving end of unwanted and unwelcomed intrusion into their personal beliefs and lives!

If you are once again, looking for a 100% consensus in order to acknowledge a problem, then you will never find it....because you are holding out for that last 1%....which not only is very fatiguing and foolish, but it ignores a plethora of stated issues here that have deep relevance and merit.

While it is your own opinion that by your own standards that there are "good Christians, Muslims, Buhhdists, et al," that is your opinion. But I believe that the Bible is the standard by which a person's "goodness" or not, is measured, and in God's words, men/women are are equally full of sin, and there is nothing they can do on their own to achieve holiness with their Creator, ie the basis of Christianity....Christ being the bridge for us....an example might be, and there are many, of the man who sells all he has, gives it all to charity, to show God what a "good Christian, Muslim, Jew, et al" he is, but he holds enmity against a brother.....this is heart of the matter, so to speak....and this is what I meant when I said that "there is no such thing as a Good Christian, etc. in God's eyes....as far as I know, He doesn't play favorites....He is a Just God....and if we were able to "work our way" to heaven, some of us would have a headstart ahead of others who maybe made some previous bad choices along the way.....in His eyes, we are all the same....

So...from a spiritual perspective, of which I was referring, and what you may have misinterpreted, we are separated from God since the Fall of Adam....this is what makes us NOT GOOD spiritually, in God's eyes. And conversely, this is what makes us not ABLE to do all sorts of good things in order to garner special favor with Him.....the beggar, drunkard, murderer, terrorist, is in His eyes, also a part of Him, and He loves them just as much as He loves someone who prays five times a day and faces east! When we, in our humanness attempt to 'earn' our way with God, we take the focus off of our own responsibility to the sin in our lives, and fool ourselves into believing that it's not as bad as it really is, because, after all, we are tithing, going to church every Sabbath, following the Ten Commandments, or whatever....none of that matters to God...what God wants is humble repentance and complete acceptance that without Him, we can do nothing....this is the beginning of a deep and living relationship that goes way beyond human boundaries....because it is God breathed within us and in His words to us....

This is the place where I dwell...for I realize, I bleed, breathe, and mess up just like the next guy...and so there's no room for competition, or believing the false assumption that I "have arrived" while the rest of the unwashed masses are still struggling to catch up....I know I am not any better.....but the difference for me isn't what I HAVE DONE, but rather what facing the truth about my sin has done for me....

It has opened the door so that I can be closer to God....

crni

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · Jul 10, 2007

Jesus commanded believers in the Bible before He went up to Heaven and told them "Go to all the world" and share the message of forgiveness and love, eternal life. It is an act of obedience she is doing to God, regardless of denomination.

How unfortunate for her that Jesus is not on any State licensing boards. She can do all the religiously obedient things she likes, but she CAN and WILL be held accountable for breaking MAN'S law, even if it's less important to her than G-d's law. She is not immune to repercussion.

She has a burden for lost souls. Meeting the spiritual needs of a patient is not only ethical, but in the holistic approach it is required. Meeting the need. When she stands before her Maker one day she wants to know that she made the effort.

Her "burden" does not mean her patient is willing to hear of her need. And make no mistake, it's HER need. Meeting the spiritual needs of a patient IS ethical, but there are clear guidelines for that. And a nurse who makes it her personal mission to seek out and find those about to die so they can "hear the word" has violated them.

I can't tell you over the years of working post op and ICU, Hospice and the like how much this means to patients and families. Many feel helpless to even ask a question let alone find a nurse who is willing to pray with them. Often the floodgates open and though the loved one may be dying, the healing of the soul begins....

I know how much it means to have someone care, and show compassion. And all that can be easily accomplished without routinely asking someone if they've repented their sins, accepted Jesus, become born-again, or made peace with G-d.

I am sure if she is being led by the Lord, she is sensitive to how she approaches those who are dying. She may be their last chance to hear of the message. A Chaplain can't be everywhere at once.

Really? You're so sure she's sensitive to how she approaches those who are dying? I'm equally sure she's not. Because if she were so sensitive, she wouldn't be declaring "the Jesus factor is squared away" as though it were a tickmark of achievement. A chaplain can't be everywhere at once, but since when did that mean that the NURSE should step into his shoes? Or, for that matter, how is it that she's determined that her form of religion is the one that needs to be heard? She isn't offering to spread a Rabbi's "message", is she?

What is unethical, would be if she stood there as Judge and Jury, which I doubt is the case. Personally I wish that more nurses as she is met those needs.

And I'm personally wondering how you feel if the nurse you or your loved one depended upon for care was bent on converting you or them to Wicca, Buddhism, Shintoism, Judaism. After all, she might well see it as crucial that you come to accept those beliefs before you die. And it might be your last chance to hear that message, so....you won't mind if she tells you all about the Great Spirits of the Iroquois until you accept it....right? Do you wish there were more of THOSE nurses around?

God will be her judge, not us.

Actually, the State BON will be her judge. If she cares about her life on Earth (and she may not), then she'll care about that decision too.

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · Jul 10, 2007

I think I could have saved myself some typing if I'd continued to read the posts I'd missed!

Something teeituptom said rang a bell with me, a bit on a side note: years ago, the grandmother of a former boyfriend declared that I was "a good Christian". Boyfriend gently reminded Grandma that I was, in fact, Jewish. She said she didn't care, that (something I had just said or done) showed I was "a good Christian". I, too, tried to gently say that what I had said (or done, don't remember) was just morally sound to me, and that if anything, I must have gotten it from my Jewish upbringing. No slight to Christians, but hey, I wasn't one, lol. She was not to be swayed: since I showed good moral fiber, by gosh, I was showing signs of being "a good Christian". Sigh. Guess us "good Jews" who had a moral conscious were NOT gonna fit into her equation, LOL!

CRNI-ICU20 · Jul 10, 2007

Not all believers believe in witnessing to someone when they don't want to be witnessed to. All I want is to be able to if someone wants to hear.

To Fronkey:

I am not sure what you are arguing here....the OP stated that the nurse in question was planning on going into hospice so 'that she could save souls before they die'.....

Not all of those souls are going to want to hear what she has to say.....particularly if she approaches this with "the Jesus Factor squared away" mentality. There's a difference, A BIG DIFFERENCE, between "witnessing" or answering for "the faith/hope that is in you in a quiet and respectful manner" and bouncing into a patient's room with an agenda of saving their soul....because, well, they are sinners, you know!

As far as I know, in most places, if the patient requests or asks about your own faith, or attitude, or to pray with them, there aren't any federal laws forbidding you from doing so....so I am not sure why you say, "I just want to be able to {witness}if someone wants to hear"?

I think the issue here is not so much on supporting people holistically and providing spiritual support, so much as the over zealous Christians standing outside a patient's room and declaring, "I've got the Jesus Factor all squared away"....as if another notch has been carved into the belt....last I checked, scorecards were not part of the Plan....ya know??

She may have been just glib and lighthearted.....but then to declare that the next place she planned on doing her job was amongst vulnerable dying patients so she can "lead people to Jesus before they die", hardly embraces glib or lighthearted...

Our job is serious, compassionate, IMPARTIAL, work....and patients deserve our serious compassionate impartial attention to THEIR needs.

This is so blatantly self-absorbed it gags me.....(truly).

If someone in my care said something like, "Nurse, would you tell me about your faith? and why you believe what you believe?" I would be HONORED to tell them, and would as simply and quietly do so, as possible. I don't think I would skip down the hall thereafter believing I HAD SOMEHOW SINGEHANDEDLY saved someone's soul!

Nor would I leave a certain area of nursing and search out another with the belief that I was some sort of Christian super-hero.

We make plans, and God smiles....

Like I said in a previous entry, this nurse, while she may believe she is doing good and has good intentions, is spiritually immature/arrested.

A spiritually mature person doesn't have to go searching for places to "fish"....and they don't have to keep a scorecard for their co-workers to see...our spiritual and nursing work is all around us....and it's our choice whether or not we decide to do it or not...

crni;)

CHATSDALE · Jul 10, 2007

if the nurse is taking a job of her choice, to be a witness of her faith, does not mean that she willl attempt to shame or force anyone to listen to what she has to say

i can't believe that the BON has the authority to yank a license from a competent nurse who talks, w/o pressure, to her patients..she may be giving comfort at a traumatic time

facing death is something that we know is approaching all of our lives but when it becomes a palpable fact we may need someone who is willing to take a few minutes to listen as one human to another

nurses jobs are so busy it is a good thing when they have a minute here and there to see the patient as an individual..

i have lived and worked all over the usa and i have met people of all faiths and lack there of i will always listen, i may not change my mind but i will try and understand why they believe what they believe

UM Review RN, ASN, RN · Jul 10, 2007

if the nurse is taking a job of her choice, to be a witness of her faith, does not mean that she willl attempt to shame or force anyone to listen to what she has to say
i can't believe that the BON has the authority to yank a license from a competent nurse who talks, w/o pressure, to her patients..she may be giving comfort at a traumatic time
facing death is something that we know is approaching all of our lives but when it becomes a palpable fact we may need someone who is willing to take a few minutes to listen as one human to another
nurses jobs are so busy it is a good thing when they have a minute here and there to see the patient as an individual..
i have lived and worked all over the usa and i have met people of all faiths and lack there of i will always listen, i may not change my mind but i will try and understand why they believe what they believe

Key words, Chats. The nurse in the OP's version of events sounded as though she was going to wrest a conversion whether the patient wanted to or not.

On my deathbed, I'd prefer to have people of the same spiritual identity as myself, practicing our faith. That would be so much more comforting to me than having non-believers hanging around with their fingers in their ears wishing we'd shut up when we pray in tongues and lay hands on one another.

LydiaNN · Jul 10, 2007

It is much like any other kind of harrassment... Feel free to ask me once if I wish to speak to the chaplain, pray with you, hear about the Word, whatever... I won't be offended. Continue to ask me once I decline, or feel compelled to assign a moral judgment to my decision, however, and you'll tick me off.

ceecel.dee, MSN, RN · Jul 10, 2007

There's a difference, A BIG DIFFERENCE, between "witnessing" or answering for "the faith/hope that is in you in a quiet and respectful manner" and bouncing into a patient's room with an agenda of saving their soul....because, well, they are sinners, you know!
I think the issue here is not so much on supporting people holistically and providing spiritual support, so much as the over zealous Christians standing outside a patient's room and declaring, "I've got the Jesus Factor all squared away"....as if another notch has been carved into the belt....last I checked, scorecards were not part of the Plan....ya know??
She may have been just glib and lighthearted.....but then to declare that the next place she planned on doing her job was amongst vulnerable dying patients so she can "lead people to Jesus before they die", hardly embraces glib or lighthearted...
Our job is serious, compassionate, IMPARTIAL, work....and patients deserve our serious compassionate impartial attention to THEIR needs.
If someone in my care said something like, "Nurse, would you tell me about your faith? and why you believe what you believe?" I would be HONORED to tell them, and would as simply and quietly do so, as possible. I don't think I would skip down the hall thereafter believing I HAD SOMEHOW SINGEHANDEDLY saved someone's soul!
Nor would I leave a certain area of nursing and search out another with the belief that I was some sort of Christian super-hero.
Like I said in a previous entry, this nurse, while she may believe she is doing good and has good intentions, is spiritually immature/arrested.
A spiritually mature person doesn't have to go searching for places to "fish"....and they don't have to keep a scorecard for their co-workers to see...our spiritual and nursing work is all around us....and it's our choice whether or not we decide to do it or not...
crni;)

Wow! This is an impressively articulate post, and I could never have said it better myself!