"The Jesus Factor"

Columnist · Jul 10, 2007

Not all believers believe in witnessing to someone when they don't want to be witnessed to. All I want is to be able to if someone wants to hear.
To Fronkey:
I am not sure what you are arguing here....the OP stated that the nurse in question was planning on going into hospice so 'that she could save souls before they die'.....
Not all of those souls are going to want to hear what she has to say.....particularly if she approaches this with "the Jesus Factor squared away" mentality. There's a difference, A BIG DIFFERENCE, between "witnessing" or answering for "the faith/hope that is in you in a quiet and respectful manner" and bouncing into a patient's room with an agenda of saving their soul....because, well, they are sinners, you know!
As far as I know, in most places, if the patient requests or asks about your own faith, or attitude, or to pray with them, there aren't any federal laws forbidding you from doing so....so I am not sure why you say, "I just want to be able to {witness}if someone wants to hear"?
I think the issue here is not so much on supporting people holistically and providing spiritual support, so much as the over zealous Christians standing outside a patient's room and declaring, "I've got the Jesus Factor all squared away"....as if another notch has been carved into the belt....last I checked, scorecards were not part of the Plan....ya know??
She may have been just glib and lighthearted.....but then to declare that the next place she planned on doing her job was amongst vulnerable dying patients so she can "lead people to Jesus before they die", hardly embraces glib or lighthearted...
Our job is serious, compassionate, IMPARTIAL, work....and patients deserve our serious compassionate impartial attention to THEIR needs.
This is so blatantly self-absorbed it gags me.....(truly).
If someone in my care said something like, "Nurse, would you tell me about your faith? and why you believe what you believe?" I would be HONORED to tell them, and would as simply and quietly do so, as possible. I don't think I would skip down the hall thereafter believing I HAD SOMEHOW SINGEHANDEDLY saved someone's soul!
Nor would I leave a certain area of nursing and search out another with the belief that I was some sort of Christian super-hero.
We make plans, and God smiles....
Like I said in a previous entry, this nurse, while she may believe she is doing good and has good intentions, is spiritually immature/arrested.
A spiritually mature person doesn't have to go searching for places to "fish"....and they don't have to keep a scorecard for their co-workers to see...our spiritual and nursing work is all around us....and it's our choice whether or not we decide to do it or not...
crni;)

semiller36545 · Jul 10, 2007

Really,really well said.

rngreenhorn · Jul 10, 2007

Personally, I'm a born-again-paranoid agnostic: I don't know if there is a God, but if there is, I think he is out to get me...

Should I ever find myself a patient with hospice, I guess I won't mind if the nurse feels the need to handle the "Jesus Factor", so long as she doesn't forget to handle the more important "MORPHINE FACTOR."

CRNI-ICU20 · Jul 10, 2007

rngreenhorn.....That is just exquisite!! I love your humor and honesty....well said!!crni

pagandeva2000, LPN · Jul 11, 2007

I don't necessarily think what the nurse did was right, if she had permission from the pt to speak I'm ok w/ it (as long as she let it go if the pt didn't respond to it).
As far as a person from another faith trying to tell me about their religion, I'm ok w/ that, also as long as they let it go when I say i'm not interested. The reason I feel that way is if they care enough to take the time to try to give me peace and an assurance of a hereafter, then as far as I'm concerned that shows they are a caring and compassionate person who cares about me even though I'm not one of their "group".

Thanks for responding. Now, what if the person felt intimidated to speak their mind? I ask this because this can happen to us everyday. We need something from someone who is supposed to render us a service, maybe looking for a job, applying for a loan (in this case, it is nursing), and in order to give ourselves the best possible advantage, we may not tell a person how we truly feel about their actions. I have seen patients keep their mouths shut for what I would silently interpet as ridiculous reasons, but I can't control what they think.

It is a good thing, though, to feel honored that someone thought enough of you to want to wish you good tidings and peace no matter what life path you follow.

pagandeva2000, LPN · Jul 11, 2007

Personally, I'm a born-again-paranoid agnostic: I don't know if there is a God, but if there is, I think he is out to get me...
Should I ever find myself a patient with hospice, I guess I won't mind if the nurse feels the need to handle the "Jesus Factor", so long as she doesn't forget to handle the more important "MORPHINE FACTOR."

:lol2: :lol2: :lol2: ...Yeah, because after getting the drugs, you may not care what she is saying... :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

That was a GAS!!! Funny!!

reesern63, RN · Jul 11, 2007

How unfortunate for her that Jesus is not on any State licensing boards. She can do all the religiously obedient things she likes, but she CAN and WILL be held accountable for breaking MAN'S law, even if it's less important to her than G-d's law. She is not immune to repercussion.
Her "burden" does not mean her patient is willing to hear of her need. And make no mistake, it's HER need. Meeting the spiritual needs of a patient IS ethical, but there are clear guidelines for that. And a nurse who makes it her personal mission to seek out and find those about to die so they can "hear the word" has violated them.
I know how much it means to have someone care, and show compassion. And all that can be easily accomplished without routinely asking someone if they've repented their sins, accepted Jesus, become born-again, or made peace with G-d.
Really? You're so sure she's sensitive to how she approaches those who are dying? I'm equally sure she's not. Because if she were so sensitive, she wouldn't be declaring "the Jesus factor is squared away" as though it were a tickmark of achievement. A chaplain can't be everywhere at once, but since when did that mean that the NURSE should step into his shoes? Or, for that matter, how is it that she's determined that her form of religion is the one that needs to be heard? She isn't offering to spread a Rabbi's "message", is she?
And I'm personally wondering how you feel if the nurse you or your loved one depended upon for care was bent on converting you or them to Wicca, Buddhism, Shintoism, Judaism. After all, she might well see it as crucial that you come to accept those beliefs before you die. And it might be your last chance to hear that message, so....you won't mind if she tells you all about the Great Spirits of the Iroquois until you accept it....right? Do you wish there were more of THOSE nurses around?
Actually, the State BON will be her judge. If she cares about her life on Earth (and she may not), then she'll care about that decision too.

And then the nurse will learn another Biblical tenet: "Render unto Caesar..."

fronkey bean · Jul 11, 2007

You miss the point, which is that the Branch Davidians believed that Koresh was the Savior, because he said he was. Many are Savior hungry...I'm just saying don't give up your critical thinking skills and follow blindly. I'm a bit surprised/miffed/flabbergasted that my post would be interpreted, in any way, as Christian-bashing.
The brain-washed thing is what was intended to be the point, which is why a reminder to "think" was written.
Believe what you want to, as long as intellegent discussion can be had regarding those beliefs.
Aloha

I'm still confused. who is it you are warning not to blindly follow and what is it they should not follow blindly. I haven't seen any posts in this thread which made me feel someone was "brainwashed". I did assume you meant Christians in your op b/c DK claimed to be Jesus, that may not have been what you had in mind. BTW, I thought this whole thread was slam full of "intellegent discussion" so I don't understand the point of your post.

fronkey bean · Jul 11, 2007

Not all believers believe in witnessing to someone when they don't want to be witnessed to. All I want is to be able to if someone wants to hear.
To Fronkey:
I am not sure what you are arguing here....the OP stated that the nurse in question was planning on going into hospice so 'that she could save souls before they die'.....
Not all of those souls are going to want to hear what she has to say.....particularly if she approaches this with "the Jesus Factor squared away" mentality. There's a difference, A BIG DIFFERENCE, between "witnessing" or answering for "the faith/hope that is in you in a quiet and respectful manner" and bouncing into a patient's room with an agenda of saving their soul....because, well, they are sinners, you know!
As far as I know, in most places, if the patient requests or asks about your own faith, or attitude, or to pray with them, there aren't any federal laws forbidding you from doing so....so I am not sure why you say, "I just want to be able to {witness}if someone wants to hear"?
I think the issue here is not so much on supporting people holistically and providing spiritual support, so much as the over zealous Christians standing outside a patient's room and declaring, "I've got the Jesus Factor all squared away"....as if another notch has been carved into the belt....last I checked, scorecards were not part of the Plan....ya know??
She may have been just glib and lighthearted.....but then to declare that the next place she planned on doing her job was amongst vulnerable dying patients so she can "lead people to Jesus before they die", hardly embraces glib or lighthearted...
Our job is serious, compassionate, IMPARTIAL, work....and patients deserve our serious compassionate impartial attention to THEIR needs.
This is so blatantly self-absorbed it gags me.....(truly).
If someone in my care said something like, "Nurse, would you tell me about your faith? and why you believe what you believe?" I would be HONORED to tell them, and would as simply and quietly do so, as possible. I don't think I would skip down the hall thereafter believing I HAD SOMEHOW SINGEHANDEDLY saved someone's soul!
Nor would I leave a certain area of nursing and search out another with the belief that I was some sort of Christian super-hero.
We make plans, and God smiles....
Like I said in a previous entry, this nurse, while she may believe she is doing good and has good intentions, is spiritually immature/arrested.
A spiritually mature person doesn't have to go searching for places to "fish"....and they don't have to keep a scorecard for their co-workers to see...our spiritual and nursing work is all around us....and it's our choice whether or not we decide to do it or not...
crni;)

I am not sure which post of mine you're talking about so I'm going to try to aswer w/o knowing exactly what I said.

Christians often talk in "Chistianese" esp. when talking among themselves and the nuances of their particular Christianese dialect are often lost, even other believers from a different denomination or part of the country (i.e. saved, born-again, redeemed, converted, heaven bound, born into the kingdom of God, pulled from Satan's grip, and others are all terms I have heard to describe somebody who has placed their faith in Jesus [the term I use]). As this nurse and doc apparently attended church together they may have been using a term particular to their congregation (it is one I have never heard before, not that I am any expert, but being a nerd as well as a Christian, I have read a lot of different resources and have never seen that term before this post).

For a Christian to want to be somewhere where she would be available to people who might want to know how to have "the Jesus Factor" doesn't necessarily mean she is being pushy in how she offers it. To give an example, I have a friend who is a realtor. When ever she shows a place to someone new in town, if they ask about churches in town she gives them a list of local churches and also invites them to our church. She hasn't pushed her views or church on them, they expressed an interest, she gave them options, and then personally invited them to one of those options, if they express further interest, she will share her testimony with them.

I don't know how the woman in the OP approached pts. but I hope it was something like after having established a positive proffessional relationship, the pt asks her opinion on some spiritual matter and in the course of the conversation the nurse asks "do you mind if I share w/ you how I came to have peace in this matter?"

You are right, people do not place their faith in Jesus b/c a Christian "single handedly saves their souls". People are drawn to Christ in a variety of ways, one of which is hearing the testimony of a believer. But it is the Holy Spirit that draws people's hearts and a wise Chistian knows to be willing to give someone information if they ask for it and then let God do w/ it what He will.

And as far as keeping a score card, the OP said this woman was an awesome nurse so I assume she had worked w/ her for a little while at least and she didn't talk about any previous incidents, so it doesn't appear she was keeping a scorecard. She may honestly just have been talking about something that excited her (having had a chance to talk about her Lord) w/ someone who would understand her excitement. I wish she were here to present her own motives and actions. She's been tried by a jury of her peers in absentia w/o having had a chance to present evidense on her own behalf.

It is much like any other kind of harrassment... Feel free to ask me once if I wish to speak to the chaplain, pray with you, hear about the Word, whatever... I won't be offended. Continue to ask me once I decline, or feel compelled to assign a moral judgment to my decision, however, and you'll tick me off.

Mercy,I agree! I absolutely hate it when someone tries to convince me my faith is useless or wrong. I don't mind listening to someone tell what they believe, I don't even mind a little debate, but when I say I don't believe in what you are saying and they don't back off it really irritates me. I always ask before I share my faith and I am always respectful when someone says they are not interested.

Personally, I'm a born-again-paranoid agnostic: I don't know if there is a God, but if there is, I think he is out to get me...
Should I ever find myself a patient with hospice, I guess I won't mind if the nurse feels the need to handle the "Jesus Factor", so long as she doesn't forget to handle the more important "MORPHINE FACTOR."

LOL:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

Thanks for responding. Now, what if the person felt intimidated to speak their mind? I ask this because this can happen to us everyday. We need something from someone who is supposed to render us a service, maybe looking for a job, applying for a loan (in this case, it is nursing), and in order to give ourselves the best possible advantage, we may not tell a person how we truly feel about their actions. I have seen patients keep their mouths shut for what I would silently interpet as ridiculous reasons, but I can't control what they think.
It is a good thing, though, to feel honored that someone thought enough of you to want to wish you good tidings and peace no matter what life path you follow.

I think the key is not speaking about something unless you have been invited to. I can see a pt not wanting to tell a nurse to shut up and go away or to report her/him, but not if they asked for the info.

kcalohagirl · Jul 11, 2007

Wow. Thanks all for such an interesting and thought-provoking thread. It has really been an enlightening read.

Like pagandeva, I also do not wear my pentacle to work, because of the negative connotations it carries. I do, however have a lovely sterling silver broomstick pendant (purchased at the hospital giftshop, if you can believe it!) that I wear occasionally. The only comment I've ever had about the broomstick was, "You must be a Harry Potter fan!" (Well, yes, actually.)

I do not broadcast my faith (or as others may see it, lack thereof), but when someone asks me why I'll be off work for two weeks, and I reply "Oh, I am on medical staff for an outdoor festival." If they ask further, "A spiritual retreat." If they continue to ask for details, I'll tell them. I work with a great group of individuals, and never once have I been made to feel uncomfortable.

Also on my floor, we have a couple of nurses who are very devout Christians, who do yearly missionary trips, who are very active in their churches, etc. Because going to Sunday service is such an important thing to them, rather than working a "weekend" per se, they will work two Saturdays. Everyone seems to be great with this.

As far as someone trying square up the "Jesus factor" with a dying patient. . . . . . .I feel it is completely inappropriate. If the patient asks you to pray with/for them, then I think that is a completely different matter. But to try to square matters in the afterlife for the person to make YOURSELF feel better is simply not our job as nurses.

On the way out the door at 7 in the morning, I often make one last stop in my patient's room, give them a smile, say, "I'll be thinkin' about ya!" and head out the door.

After all, even if you are Christian, and even if you*are* praying, isn't "thinking about them" a part of the process?

Thanks again for the amazing discussion!

fronkey bean · Jul 11, 2007

Wow. Thanks all for such an interesting and thought-provoking thread. It has really been an enlightening read.
I do not broadcast my faith (or as others may see it, lack thereof), but when someone asks me why I'll be off work for two weeks, and I reply "Oh, I am on medical staff for an outdoor festival." If they ask further, "A spiritual retreat." If they continue to ask for details, I'll tell them. I work with a great group of individuals, and never once have I been made to feel uncomfortable.
Also on my floor, we have a couple of nurses who are very devout Christians, who do yearly missionary trips, who are very active in their churches, etc. Because going to Sunday service is such an important thing to them, rather than working a "weekend" per se, they will work two Saturdays. Everyone seems to be great with this.
On the way out the door at 7 in the morning, I often make one last stop in my patient's room, give them a smile, say, "I'll be thinkin' about ya!" and head out the door.
After all, even if you are Christian, and even if you*are* praying, isn't "thinking about them" a part of the process?
Thanks again for the amazing discussion!

I agree, Kcalohagirl. It sounds like you have a great working environment too. That's how it should be. Differences of opinion and faith don't have to cause arguements if we all treat each other as we want to be treated.:icon_hug:

Tweety, BSN, RN · Jul 11, 2007

I don't know how the woman in the OP approached pts. but I hope it was something like after having established a positive proffessional relationship, the pt asks her opinion on some spiritual matter and in the course of the conversation the nurse asks "do you mind if I share w/ you how I came to have peace in this matter."

I would like to think that's her approach. That she's making herself available and helping her patients with their own spiritual agenda and not hers. That's definately what a good nurse, especially a hopsice nurse should do.

We're not flies ont he wall and don't really know and I appreciate that you're presuming and hoping for the best. But with a statement like "I asked her what that meant and she said that she liked to make sure where people were going when they die. She said that that was one reason why she wanted to do home health and hospice, was to help people find Jesus before they die." can you blame some of us for being a bit wary that she has an agenda as well? One that crosses a boundry that shouldn't be cross despite the Bible's mandate?