"The Jesus Factor"

elcue · Jul 10, 2007

it is not a therapeutic relationship if the nurse has to fill a need from the interactions. client centered right? it sounds to me that this nurse wants to fill her need of wanting this person to believe in god-- and not the patients need of believing. (nurse centered-not client centered)

you may be "only a student nurse", angel amy, but you get it. good for you! you'll be a good nurse. linda

loricatus · Jul 10, 2007

To teeituptom: you might not see any issues if you are of the same minds-set or belief system as the patient laying there....but what if this over-zealous "Jesus-Factor" nurse decides that it is HER duty as a God fearing Christian to convert the dying Muslim man, or the Jewish woman? Do you see any issues with that??? This kind of overbearance is insulting to some.....tantamount to serving pork to a Jew, or a female nurse touching the hand of a male Muslim, (in some sects this is seen as inappropriate and sexual in connotation....non-muslims are after all, seen as unclean...infidels)....so THERE ARE BIG ISSUES HERE.
Again, this is an un-welcomed intrusion on someone's very intimate and valuable time, not unlike an intrusive unwanted hug....this is wrong....and it doesn't matter that she thinks she's doing God's work, she's not doing God's work.....she is imposing HER will and belief system on someone else, which if you look at that simplistically, is no different than trying to control another's spirit....which in biblical terms is not of God....'NOT MY WILL, BUT THINE BE DONE'.....
One thing that has always really bothered me about some evangelical Christians is that they like to pick and choose which parts of the Bible they decide to practice, which parts they like to ignore.....
Some of what is preached from very "successful" pulpits in Christian circles would have people believing that to NOT intrude is being a wimp Christian. These same will use fact and fiction, intermingle them as if TRUTH, and call it Gospel....to achieve their 'goal', which is to build huge churches like Saddleback, for instance, or WillowCreek....all in an outward appearance of being 'successful'.....but in nearly all of these examples, they are remarkably similar to the Church of Laodicea as mentioned in the book of Revelations....they are neither cold nor hot.....and they will be spewed out of His mouth....
Some who buy into the "Jesus Factor" of ministry, are deceived into believing that this is what being a good Christian is all about....nothing could be further from the truth....The truth is, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A 'GOOD CHRISTIAN'.....we are all as filthy rags in comparison to His holiness...and there is nothing WE can do on our own steam that bridges this....it never was and never will be about OUR SELVES....if anyone ever says "Jesus Factor squared away" to me, it is a clear sign they have no clue and very little respect for the holiness of One Life who was blameless.....it cheapens the very fabric of His life...and that sickens me...(this is how I feel...and what I believe)
When someone intrusively barrels into your room, on your deathbed, and decides you need to 'come to Jesus', isn't that imposing THEIR will on you, and not invoking a spirit of peace, respect, and comfort?
Now, for all the believers out there......
Who/what sort of "spirit" does this type of behaviour have it's root in???
St. Paul said "test the spirits".....I think this is one time when that is a wise and helpful decision.
crni

:yelclap::yelclap::yelclap::yelclap::yelclap::yelclap::yelclap:

fronkey bean · Jul 10, 2007

This site is different than at work. At work the focus should be on patients, not controversial subjects. For instance, on the subject of religion, when someone voices their belief that certain people are going to Hell, it upsets and offends them, so they can't concentrate on their work. A nurses station isn't the appropriate place to debate religion, immigration reform, gay marriage, foreign aid to the State of Israel, or anything else that might offend a whole group of people and/or their relatives. It doesn't create the proper atmosphere for patient care, nor does it foster teamwork.
Take the subject of immigration. Some people assume that anyone against it also dispises Mexicans. It emotionally riles them up to hear that anyone wants to close the borders. So, it's best to stay off that hot topic at work.

I agree but I wasn't talking about work just anywhere in general. I hate turning on CNN or FOX and watching people "debate". When I learned to debate (ok, admittedly it was a LOOONG time ago) you had to wait your turn and each participant had a time limit so no one would dominate. On the news shows now people just keep talking and their opponents talk over them and all the while the host keeps interrupting - it's chaos. You can't learn anything so how can you ever form an informed position or take in new info that might change what you think about a situation. I think it is part of what keeps groups so polarized. there is no compromise possible b/c no one is listening to anyone but themselves. Anyway, I appreciate this site b/c everyone does get a chance to voice w/o being shouted down.

fronkey bean · Jul 10, 2007

You don't know that I'm 'reading into' anything. I'm not talking about mere pamphlets but rather common teachings within many Evangelical circles.
This particular topic has been a sidetrack to the purpose of this thread, and I give up.

I said IF they are like the ones I have read. As I frequent those evangelical circles you mentioned I've had the opportunity to see and hear a little of the messages that get preached. Sermons aren't intended for non-believers, why would you tell someone who doesn't believe in God what God expects them to do? Sermons are meant to instruct and admonish believers. Some of them touch on the hipocritical and harsh attitudes that some Christians have when dealing w/ non-believers and the negative view it gives NBs of Christianity. It is an admonishment for believers to change their behavior so that NBs will quit focussing on the negative view of these Christians and hopefully to be able to see Jesus w/o our actions clouding the image. It's not about "act nicer so we can witness to them later", its about "move out of Jesus' way so folks can see Him".

P.S. Evangelical is a large movement w/ many different groups encompassed in it. A Baptist is not a Assembly of God is not a Pentacostle is not a Methodist. In fact, some from these groups would not even describe themselves as Evangelical. The core that holds these groups together is that salvation is by God's grace through faith in Jesus. Very little else can be said to be common to all or even a majority of "evangelicals".

fronkey bean · Jul 10, 2007

You're right we have gone off on a tagent and perhaps it's best we let that go.

Sorry, answered multicollinarity before I read this.

fronkey bean · Jul 10, 2007

If that nurse chooses to discuss religion that is alright with me. Now my choice though if I was dying would be to at least talk about Golf. I suppose that is my religion. Golf is very religious in its own way. Look at all the Saints in golf. St Andrews, St Georges, St Jack, St Arnie, St Lee.

LOL:lol2:

CHATSDALE · Jul 10, 2007

i am a born-again christian, of conservative slant, southern by grace of God so don't tell me there isn't persecution

but i can tell you first hand the only person who is going to heaven is my ex-husband,just ask him and he will tell you

however i have witnessed 'death bed conversion,

i also had a friend who lived a life-time as an athiest but when he received a terminal dx he responded as he had all his life with taking control of the situation, planning his funeral, he called a rabbi and wrote out with precision what he wanted done rabbi, his wife and children were all amazed

i worked with this nurse who felt that anyone who believed in higher power was stupid..i don't remember a shift i worked with him where he didn't make a degrading remark..i ignored him but a pentecostal nurse finally transferred to another floor..which thrilled him to all get out

as for op maybe she hold off going after someones job until she has all the facts, there is nothing that i heard that says she was talking to someone who was not interested in what she had to say, she hadn't even transferred to that unit yet

give her and the doctor a break, it may not have been as judgemental as you think

i have heard the 'I'LL BE PRAYING FOR YOUR SOUL' and it is never said with christian love

being judgemental is never christian, if yo feel the need to pray for someone do it in silence and in private

i do not have a belief i have a confident knowledge

i am not perfect in prayer life or day to day life...but i love fellow humans and i am content with my life and i owe my faith in Jesus for all of that

fronkey bean · Jul 10, 2007

I have a question out of curiousity to those that think this nurse did the right thing by being obedient to Jesus Christ...(and I am not trying to initiate a flame war, here). How would YOU feel if you were in the position of the client, and a nurse that is a Muslim extremist, a Jew, Mormon, Pagan or anything else came and told you that you needed to confess to Allah, the goddess Athena or the Dali Lama before you died? And, would it be right for them to decide to possibly deny you the care due to you by the Patient Bill of Rights because you didn't believe in what they insisted you should believe in? Especially since you didn't seek it out because you were firm in your personal belief system?
Christian or not; there is usually some level of fear before an anticipated death. Maybe even some doubts in what one believed in all along. Suffering, illness and fear does not discriminate. To have someone infuse their belief system is a violation to their rights to believe as they choose to.

I don't necessarily think what the nurse did was right, if she had permission from the pt to speak I'm ok w/ it (as long as she let it go if the pt didn't respond to it).

As far as a person from another faith trying to tell me about their religion, I'm ok w/ that, also as long as they let it go when I say i'm not interested. The reason I feel that way is if they care enough to take the time to try to give me peace and an assurance of a hereafter, then as far as I'm concerned that shows they are a caring and compassionate person who cares about me even though I'm not one of their "group".

fronkey bean · Jul 10, 2007

....which in biblical terms is not of God....'NOT MY WILL, BUT THINE BE DONE'.....
One thing that has always really bothered me about some evangelical Christians is that they like to pick and choose which parts of the Bible they decide to practice, which parts they like to ignore.....
Not unlike others who will ignore Christs command to go into all the world (not force youself into all the world but GO) BTW Jesus said that to His Father in obedience to being willing to suffer, not as an indication that we should not tell others about Christ.
....The truth is, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A 'GOOD CHRISTIAN'.....we are all as filthy rags in comparison to His holiness...and there is nothing WE can do on our own steam that bridges this....it never was and never will be about OUR SELVES....
The actual verse is that "all our works are as filthy rags" meaning all we do on our own to try to earn savation. The Bible does say we can be "washed whiter than snow" and Jesus does talked about servants of the kingdom being commended for being wise servants w/ the words "Well done my GOOD and faithful servant" (emph. mine)
When someone intrusively barrels into your room, on your deathbed, and decides you need to 'come to Jesus', isn't that imposing THEIR will on you, and not invoking a spirit of peace, respect, and comfort?
Yes, and it is disrespectful and rude. If you are invited to share (and you should always ask even if you were already having a discussion about spiritual things) then you should, if not you have no right to and I don't believe Jesus would expect you to.
Now, for all the believers out there......
Who/what sort of "spirit" does this type of behaviour have it's root in???
St. Paul said "test the spirits".....I think this is one time when that is a wise and helpful decision.
crni

Not all believers believe in witnessing to someone when they don't want to be witnessed to. All I want is to be able to if someone wants to hear.

Does David Koresh (Aug 17, 1959 - April 19, 1993), leader of the Branch Davidians, ring a bell?
Just continue to think for yourselves. Everyone needs beliefs and a polarizing spot...but common sense always, always plays a role.

That is a bit like comparing all Germans to Hitler. One crazy member does not make it a crazy movement (Christians I mean. I think the Branch Davidians were pretty much either crazy or brain washed).

purple1953reading · Jul 10, 2007

As a patient faces a terminal diagnosis, we know that they go through so many emotions. When a patient decides to become a patient with Hospice, they are no longer pursuing a "cure", but are looking to be comfortable with their own death. Mortalitly in and of itself is hard for many to accept, but a fact of life, they aren't often ready for.. They are in search of maximum comfort with minimum uncertainty. ( funny how that sounds like Ericksons' first stage) . That comfort takes many forms, and their nurse fills many roles. Someone alone, with no support system, will turn to their nurse for support usually given by their family, the nurse is the one to relieve their pain, physical or emotional, the nurse provides comfort measures, the nurse takes care of their basic physical needs. AND in some cases, the nurse helps satisy their spiritual needs. But, as so ardently pointed out in varied posts, the patient's needs. Fulfilling the needs of patients is consuming, and as with every situation, it is the nurses's job/purpose to care for the patient and provide support and comfort. . I can say that those with a strong, secure faith seem to fear death less than others and be more at peace with their own mortality. BUT it is THEIR FAITH. We each search for what satisfies our own needs. Nursing is our profession, and we are fulfilling a committment, when we care for our patients. Along with that profession comes certain responsibilities, and sacrifices while we devote our strengths,energy, expertise, to others. I dont care what religious choice they have made, or hope to make, I just want for them to feel safe, comfortable, and unafraid.

For me, it is inappropriate for the nurse to try to convert or initiate any topic or concept the makes the patient uncomfortable. I much prefer open- ended questions, and to encourage the patient to express his beliefs and needs. Listening to somebody review their life, marvel at their children, and be thankful for the life they have had shows they are coping with loss, and preparing for death. At this point in their life, I would not introduce conflict, but strive to avoid it. The chaos of life and death, and departing all famliar for the unkown is enough.I would bow my head, while a family member prayed, but would not offer the prayer(maybe in my heart )

To me , my personal quest for their salvation, on my terms would be inappropriate.

ceecel.dee, MSN, RN · Jul 10, 2007

That is a bit like comparing all Germans to Hitler. One crazy member does not make it a crazy movement (Christians I mean. I think the Branch Davidians were pretty much either crazy or brain washed).

You miss the point, which is that the Branch Davidians believed that Koresh was the Savior, because he said he was. Many are Savior hungry...I'm just saying don't give up your critical thinking skills and follow blindly. I'm a bit surprised/miffed/flabbergasted that my post would be interpreted, in any way, as Christian-bashing.

The brain-washed thing is what was intended to be the point, which is why a reminder to "think" was written.

Believe what you want to, as long as intellegent discussion can be had regarding those beliefs.

Aloha

FireStarterRN, BSN, RN · Jul 10, 2007

but, according to the parable of the sheep and goats, in order to be saved we must serve christ by serving the least of us, which are the weak, the prisoners, the sick, the stranger. it doesn't state anything about converting them. also, the lord's prayer, the prayer that jesus taught up, teaches us "forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive the tresspasses of others" this implies that forgiveness comes as we ourselves learn to forgive.

matthew 25:31-46 nab

31 14 "when the son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 he will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 then the king will say to those on his right, 'come, you who are blessed by my father. inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 for i was hungry and you gave me food, i was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' 37 then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 when did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' 40 and the king will say to them in reply, 'amen, i say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 17 then he will say to those on his left, 'depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 for i was hungry and you gave me no food, i was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 44 18 then they will answer and say, 'lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' 45 he will answer them, 'amen, i say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' 46 and these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."