Termination From Employer For Refusing EUV

[RaineyRN7]

I am an Oncology nurse working for a hospital for more than 13 years. I live in California and there is now a mandate in place that is requiring me to be vaccinated before Sept. 30th or I will be terminated from my job. Not only do I not feel comfortable to receive a EUV that no long term studies have been documented because it is too new and not FDA approved but I have also witnessed friends as well as patients having severe side effects after receiving vaccination.

I am unclear how an employer has the LEGAL RIGHT to ask me personal questions about my religious beliefs or medical information (vaccination status), where are my HIPAA Rights. Employer vaccine mandates are subject to religious accommodation under the Title VII of the Civil rights act. For personal reasons I will be submitting for religious exemption to hopefully prevent me from losing my job. 

I'm not sure what the outcome will be but I am planning to seek employment elsewhere in case I do lose my job and likely it won't be in healthcare. I don't know if this will be the end of my nursing career and if it is I feel extremely sad about that. 

What happened to the phrase " my body my choice " ? 

I will not be forced to do anything to my body that I do not choose.

 Through scripture we know that God values our bodies. Our bodies are said to be a temple of the Holy Spirit, and we are called to take care of and honor God's temple. God's words lead use to use our bodies and the gifts He has given us to achieve the will of God.

[iNurs5, CNA]

1 hour ago, emtb2rn said:

I bolded the section above because I’d like you to show me who exactly is advocating doing this. It’s a decent gambit if you are trying to elicit an emotional response in a debate but nobody is forcing anyone to get vaccinated. Private companies are requiring it and that’s their prerogative.

And have you read the nuremburg code? It absolutely states that free will is essential to deciding on a treatment but it also says  “[t]his code also recognizes that the risk must be weighed against the expected benefit”.

http://www.cirp.org/library/ethics/nuremberg/

"The experiment should be such as to yield fruitful results for the good of society, unprocurable by other methods or means of study, and not random and unnecessary in nature."

 

"No experiment should be conducted where there is an a priori reason to believe that death or disabling injury will occur; except, perhaps, in those experiments where the experimental physicians also serve as subjects."

 

Those are from your source. The benefits outweigh the loss. 

 

[Charlcie, BSN, RN]

6 hours ago, emtb2rn said:

I bolded the section above because I’d like you to show me who exactly is advocating doing this. It’s a decent gambit if you are trying to elicit an emotional response in a debate but nobody is forcing anyone to get vaccinated. Private companies are requiring it and that’s their prerogative.

And have you read the nuremburg code? It absolutely states that free will is essential to deciding on a treatment but it also says  “[t]his code also recognizes that the risk must be weighed against the expected benefit”.

http://www.cirp.org/library/ethics/nuremberg/

I'm not trying to elicit an emotional response. Yes I have read the nuremburg code and as long as people aren't forced against their will to receive the vaccine there is no violation. Employers can choose to mandate the vaccine, and employees can choose to receive it or find other employment. The key word I repeat over and over is "choose", as long as you have a choice you have free will.  

[MunoRN, RN]

2 hours ago, Charlcie said:

I'm not trying to elicit an emotional response. Yes I have read the nuremburg code and as long as people aren't forced against their will to receive the vaccine there is no violation. Employers can choose to mandate the vaccine, and employees can choose to receive it or find other employment. The key word I repeat over and over is "choose", as long as you have a choice you have free will.  

The Nuremburg code refers to treatments that are still experimental, Covid vaccines haven't been experimental for almost a year, so that doesn't apply.  

 

[klone, MSN, RN]

13 hours ago, emtb2rn said:

I bolded the section above because I’d like you to show me who exactly is advocating doing this. It’s a decent gambit if you are trying to elicit an emotional response in a debate but nobody is forcing anyone to get vaccinated. Private companies are requiring it and that’s their prerogative.

And have you read the nuremburg code? It absolutely states that free will is essential to deciding on a treatment but it also says  “[t]his code also recognizes that the risk must be weighed against the expected benefit”.

http://www.cirp.org/library/ethics/nuremberg/

I think you missed Charlcie's point. S/he is saying that what's happening now  is NOT a Nuremburg Code violation. Because nobody is tying people down and forcing them to be vaccinated (as opposed to what many anti-vaxx people would have us believe).

[toomuchbaloney]

8 hours ago, MunoRN said:

The Nuremburg code refers to treatments that are still experimental, Covid vaccines haven't been experimental for almost a year, so that doesn't apply.  

 

You've misunderstood the post that you  quoted from Charlcie...

[RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P]

On 8/25/2021 at 12:21 PM, saltymermaid said:

I only skimmed comments but from what I can see people are divided on the vaccine. Around half the healthcare workers at my hospital don’t want to get the vaccine, many have already (knowingly) had covid as well. We are mandated to get the vaccine, like you. I’m not going to say whether I’ve got it or not, I will say I think it should be a choice and there are many, many, many who feel like you and I don’t feel like it’s my place to bully you into thinking one way or another. I think the vaccine is altogether a good thing, I think it’s probably good to get it, and I absolutely get why lots of people don’t want to. What I think is absolutely terrible is the divide it’s created among healthcare workers, nurses in particular - and to get even more specific - hospital nurses. I think the bullying is absurd. I think people lashing out on both sides is pointless. I think we should all treat each other with respect - we all have that darn RN behind our name, right? On another note, I’ve heard many people say they will seek employment elsewhere, or that they will leave nursing altogether. Quite frankly, I feel nursing has turned into quite a fiasco and I wish I, myself, could think of something with close to equal pay to do instead of nursing. Between being short staffed, not having enough support or resources, and then all this covid bs and working in an environment where nurses are literally being forced to take a vaccine or lose their job - I am looking for a job outside of the hospital. If I can ever afford to leave nursing I probably would, that’s sad to say but the career of nursing keeps changing its dynamics, and not in a good way.

Well they do say nurses eat their own. Looking at many posts in this thread and others, looking at some of the comments of the "veteran" and I don't mean military, nurses, I see where it comes from. They know best and the rest of you better shut up and do what they say. What I find really funny is some of the worst who post are not in the work force any longer or not in the areas we we would call "front line" and have no concept of what the RN in the Med-Surg/ED/ICU are facing today, but rather what they hear or see on the news. In my not so humble opinion, it is total B.S. when there is no room for any debate or concern for others points of view. What I have found really interesting is that many of these "veteran" nurses like their opinions or points of view to be taken w/o question, but often don't cite references/sources. When someone counters their opinions with sources, they completely ignore them, Anyway, I hate the fact that so many wonderfully qualified, competent, compassionate, and caring RN's are forced to choose between the mandate and work. I am not afraid to say I am vaccinated yet support those who don't want the vaccine. We all worked without it for a year. I want to see real data that shows medical personnel in proper PPE are mass spreading the disease. Then I may be more inclined to soften my stance. Remember, we are told the masks are helping to stop the spread, which is why little Timmy and Sally are wearing them in school. I hope things change for you and you are able to stay in nursing. Take care and keep the faith. 

[toomuchbaloney]

13 minutes ago, RJMDilts said:

Anyway, I hate the fact that so many wonderfully qualified, competent, compassionate, and caring RN's are forced to choose between the mandate and work. 

But it's a choice that they must make between vaccinating or not...everyone must choose. Those same people had to choose to accept other vaccines to get their nursing degrees and current employment and they weren't even in the midst of a pandemic when they chose. 

 

16 minutes ago, RJMDilts said:

I want to see real data that shows medical personnel in proper PPE are mass spreading the disease.

Do nurses and support staff working outside of covid units wear "proper PPE" when caring for noncovid patients? Did you try to look that information up and come up empty handed? 

Hospital-Acquired SARS-Cov-2 Infections in Patients

[RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P]

On 8/25/2021 at 8:21 AM, GrumpyRN said:

 

And this is why I know that you have no medical knowledge. You stated "There's plenty of other contagious diseases killing in large numbers being spread unknowingly," then give us a list with only (at best) 2 contagious diseases on it. I would hate to think that I could catch cancer from someone - maybe that's where I caught the cancer I had, from a patient.

Can you tell me how to avoid catching accidents or stroke or heart disease from people? According to you these are "contagious" diseases.

Definition of contagious

1: transmissible by direct or indirect contact with an infected person.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contagious

 

I love how you very conveniently forgot to mention that deaths from Covid in the US was 345,323 in 2020. Influenza and pneumonia sits at around 55,000 to 60,000 per year.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234

 

---

I noticed that when Heron answered you you took GREAT delight in jumping on a perceived error and tried to show how superior you are with the comment, and I quote; 

"I see, so:

influenza isn't contagious?

Lower respiratory infections aren't contagious?

Pneumonia overlaps

So get your facts straight before trying to criticize anybody.?"

So instead of correcting your own errors you try to show someone else as failing so that you feel good. And before you use the "he's bullying me" card, I'm not. I am merely pointing out your own errors and your own lack of critical thinking and knowledge.

"I would hate to think I could catch cancer from someone." "CDC recommends HPV vaccination for children at ages 11 or 12 years to protect against cancers caused by HPV infections."

https://www.CDC.gov/vaccines/vpd/hpv/hcp/index.html

Well, perhaps we should not be worried about HPV? Because that certainly is not a preventable disease that causes cancer, that other people can give one another. So, lets stop having children vaccinated for it.

Sanctimonious people on here are just about enough to make me start drinking and it's only 0930. 

When you throw rocks from your glass house they sometimes come back at ya.

My point with this. You do what you accuse the other of and think yourself high and mighty. Really? As a peer in age to many of you older nurses, I am appalled at the lack of respect you show to the younger ones. I served 30 years in the military and 8 as a medic before joining the ranks of nurses. I don't put up with the B.S. the younger RN's do when it comes to "older RNs". I treat the veteran RNs with the respect they earn, but not when they are condescending.  I throw the BS flag every time. Guess that is the advantage of having my retirement already and doing this RN thing for the love of helping folks.  That said, age should = wisdom. With wisdom comes a multitude of things, chief among them is patience and the ability to treat others with respect. As a Master Chief Petty Officer, I never spoke to Seaman Recruits that worked for me the way some older nurses speak to new nurses in the work place. It's disgusting, and I see it on here all the time. I know you old nurses think your crap doesn't stink, but I assure you, it does, as does mine. That being said, going forward, please don't be surprised by my jumping into the fray why I see this happen. Can't stand hypocrites and I hope to be called out when I do it as well.

[nursej22, MSN, RN]

25 minutes ago, RJMDilts said:

Well they do say nurses eat their own. Looking at many posts in this thread and others, looking at some of the comments of the "veteran" and I don't mean military, nurses, I see where it comes from. They know best and the rest of you better shut up and do what they say. What I find really funny is some of the worst who post are not in the work force any longer or not in the areas we we would call "front line" and have no concept of what the RN in the Med-Surg/ED/ICU are facing today, but rather what they hear or see on the news

I am pretty sure that all of the veteran nurses posting here in support of vaccines have gotten the vaccine. And many are working on your "so-called" frontline. 

[RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P]

5 minutes ago, nursej22 said:

I am pretty sure that all of the veteran nurses posting here in support of vaccines have gotten the vaccine. And many are working on your "so-called" frontline. 

And your point is what? I am vaxxed. I am in favor of the vaccine. I am not in favor of mandating it for employment. I did not saying there are not veteran nurses on the front lines on this forum posting in favor of the vaccine. My statement was factual in that many retired posters are on here blasting folks and are no longer in the trenches working with short staffs in those areas. They are blasting those who are willing to work with unvaxxed RNs to prevent being even shorter staffed. Sorry to have struck a nerve, but when I am factually incorrect, I will apologize, but what I said is accurate. 

[RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P]

45 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

But it's a choice that they must make between vaccinating or not...everyone must choose. Those same people had to choose to accept other vaccines to get their nursing degrees and current employment and they weren't even in the midst of a pandemic when they chose. 

 

Do nurses and support staff working outside of covid units wear "proper PPE" when caring for noncovid patients? Did you try to look that information up and come up empty handed? 

Hospital-Acquired SARS-Cov-2 Infections in Patients

To address your questions:

1. Can't speak to your neck of the woods where you practice, but in my local area, we are in PPE for all patients with regard to masks on them and masks on us for every patient encounter. If they are PUI (person under investigation for COVID, e.g., fever, resp sx, N/V/D, etc) we place them in isolation and then implement isolation precautions until their COVID test comes back - or +.

2. Nope, was making a general comment. Thanks for the link. I'm in the process of digesting its' contents. 

[toomuchbaloney]

39 minutes ago, RJMDilts said:

And your point is what? I am vaxxed. I am in favor of the vaccine. I am not in favor of mandating it for employment. I did not saying there are not veteran nurses on the front lines on this forum posting in favor of the vaccine. My statement was factual in that many retired posters are on here blasting folks and are no longer in the trenches working with short staffs in those areas. They are blasting those who are willing to work with unvaxxed RNs to prevent being even shorter staffed. Sorry to have struck a nerve, but when I am factually incorrect, I will apologize, but what I said is accurate. 

You don't agree with the mandate...OK...noted.  

There are retired nurses addressing this topic with actively working nurses in this nursing forum and that has struck a nerve with you...OK...noted. 

What you said is your opinion and characterization of commenting by individuals like myself.  If nurses don't want to hear the thinking of other nurses about not vaccinating and losing employment because of that choice they probably shouldn't share in discussion forums where there's a high likelihood that the members will be vaccination advocates.