Termination From Employer For Refusing EUV

ORNurseDewd, ADN · Aug 29, 2021

Oh, Subee...

Please don't wait for someone else to carry your water for you! Tell me, in your own words, where you think my train derailed or where/how my original response was illogical. Don't have to be at work until 0600 tomorrow - so I've got time to wait.

JW

subee, MSN, CRNA · Aug 29, 2021

15 hours ago, ORNurseDewd said:

OK.

Let me begin by saying, I signed up to be a volunteer participant in a clinical trial for one of the vaccines, but was not selected (In fact, I was never even contacted). Thus, when I changed jobs in January and learned they'd already scheduled me to receive the first vax dose prior to my start date, I was stoked. Felt a little crappy after the first injection, but much less so than I typically do after the annual flu shot. Four weeks to the minute later, (because that's how they roll), I received the second dose. This time, I was more sore and felt crappier than I did with the first - but still not enough to write home about and was back to baseline in just a couple days. Many of my colleagues were not quite as fortunate and experienced more severe (and persistent) reactions, post-vaccination.

So, younger healthy people, some of whom might have already generated antibodies to covid, had a robust reaction from the vaccine? I would like to know these persistent reactions they are still having since the drug itself is eliminated so quickly from the body:

Why COVID-19 Vaccines Do Not Have Long-Term Effects

The primary reason why the COVID-19 vaccines do not present long-term health problems lies on its nature. Unlike medicinal drugs that are taken in long-term doses, vaccines are designed to be one- or two-shot doses, without counting the booster shots that are given when needed. According to Paul Goepfert, MD, director of the Alabama Vaccine Research Clinic at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, vaccines are typically developed to be one-and-done since their main purpose is to deliver a payload that’s intended to start a series of immune reactions in the body.

“Vaccines are just designed to deliver a payload and then are quickly eliminated by the body. This is particularly true of the mRNA vaccines. mRNA degrades incredibly rapidly. You wouldn’t expect any of these vaccines to have any long-term side effects. And in fact, this has never occurred with any vaccine,” Goepfert said in a press release.

The aforementioned notwithstanding, I was utterly gobsmacked - and at times, appalled - at the level of vitriol directed at the OP. I am obviously not an anti-vaxxer, but certainly understand why so many peeps are hesitant to pull the trigger. For starters:

Given the speed with which these vaccines were developed and subsequently deployed, there is zero data regarding their potential long-term effects - especially with regards to the various population groups out there, such as pregnant women, peeps with specific health conditions/co-morbidities, children and those who have acquired natural immunity from having had (and recovered from) Covid

As for immediate side-effects, it seems like everyone in my department had them - ranging from mild to severe. In the beginning, no one knew if what was being experienced was "normal" or an ADR. It sure didn't instill much confidence in those who were downstream from the trailblazers in front. I would also imagine that the collateral effects on friends and family (as well as others who might have heard 2nd and 3rd hand), might have caused more than a few to tap the brakes on being vaccinated. Speaking of which, you may want to take a gander at the VAERS data base (https://vaers.hhs.gov/). If I had checked it out first, I probably would have been somewhat reticent about getting the vaccine, myself...or tempered my encouragement for others to do so.

The VAERS limitations have been previously cited here multiple times. I can report that my big toe ached after I got the vaccine and it would be entered. I could report that my husband's belt sander didn't work the next day and it would be entered.

The ever-changing guidance/recommendations put forth by the CDC and NIH continue to leave the general population bewildered and confused. First, no mask. Then two masks. Then back to one mask. That subsequently morphed into mask unless you're fully vaccinated. Now we're back to mask even if you are vaccinated. We were three months into the pandemic before masks became de rigueur. Curiously, during that time, I continued to join the teeming masses at Wally World every weekend - and yet, not a single outbreak has been traced back to the maskless shoppers in a single one of their stores during this period. Ditto with airplanes. All those peeps from whom we maintained the enforced 6-feet of distance in the TSA line, were nuts-to-butts getting on, then off, the planes - and in between, we sat just inches from each other for 5-6 hours. Throw into this primordial soup the varying city, county and state mask mandates and the whole country has been left with a collective case of whiplash.

That's because they are recommending EBP's which can't be determined until the data is in. As for masks in the beginning, they wanted the HCP's to have access to them before the general public. Masking is a science - we didn't have much knowledge about them. Once again, it took time to generate information about which masks were effective and which weren't. In time masks were developed to fit tightly across the face with non-porous fabrics and filters and worked as well, if not better than those flimsy things they give us in the OR with lousy fits on our faces. I would rather wear my own 3 layer cloth mask than those crappy OR ones. AND I agree totally that unless we change them every 20 minutes, they are useless as long as you cough or sneeze at the floor:) We were so miserable unprepared for this and hence, it shows! We lost a lot of time in the beginning because we ignored what was going on in the rest of the world AND we somehow feel that a diety watches over us specially because we are special and the rules of pandemics don't apply to us.

Speaking of masks, as an OR nurse, I am somewhat of a subject matter expert on this and can tell you that the average medical grade (non-N95) masks have an efficacy life-span of roughly 20 minutes. After 20 minutes, they are good for keeping gross contamination from reaching a person's oral or nasal orifices - and that's pretty much it. They damned sure don't filter out particles of genital warts in the smoke created when they are lasered from a patient's nether regions (just ask the nurses who acquired herpes in their oropharanx, after breathing the smoke during one of these procedures). And yet, not a single mask mandate has included minimum specs for minimum efficacy in protecting against Covid-19. If your standard surgical mask can't protect the wearer from herpes particulate, how much protection, really, are the cloth masks everyone wears, actually providing?

As I wrote above. Hey, I worked almost every Friday in the anal wart room in 1982, 83(that's where we learned to do caudal blocks). This was mid-town Manhattan. I wore my molded plastic mask which made breathing impossible unless you had great chest muscles and we had two suctions going what those cauteries were used - one from me and one from the circulator. We only had those masks because the ICU's became filled with young men who couldn't breathe (AIDS didn't have a name yet). So if people are getting infections in your OR, there is hope for improvement. We don't wear masks to 100% stop infections but only to keep the numbers down. I don't believe that herpes travels enveloped in water droplets so that makes them more transmissible.

Also worth pointing out, during the presidential campaign last year, our current POTUS and V-POTUS BOTH were unequivocal in proclaiming their refusal to get the "Trump vaccine" - then, after taking office, they proclaimed being vaccinated was our "patriotic duty." Basically, they pulled a reverse John Kerry, as they were "against the vaccine before they were for the vaccine." Aside from their being elected, what has changed?

I've seen the videos. Neither of them said that.

Citing the Trump administration's handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, Kamala Harris said that she'd happily take a vaccine that doctors and scientists recommend — but absolutely not one touted by Donald Trump. REmember, this is the guy that wanted to try bleach, HCQ and just letting it "go away."

Like the OP, I'm working in California and am under the same state-imposed mandate vis-à-vis vaccination. In practical terms, it doesn't affect me since I am vaccinated. Likewise, the mask mandate is irrelevant, as it was required by my employer long before the state imposed it. Both are now a condition of employment. But...

I have grown increasingly uncomfortable with the expanding number of executive orders and extra-Constitutional mandates/directives emanating from both the state and Federal governments. Just look at New York and how its Executive Orders turned out for nursing home residents. Now, NYC is requiring business owners to verify the vaccine status of everyone who walks through their doors - and has deployed 600 "vaccine cops" to enforce deBlasio's edict ($1000 fine for the first observed failure to verify - and the fines go up from there). Also, there is NO medical exemption, so if you have Lupus or some other condition which would prevent you from receiving the vaccine, you're SOL...you'll never be allowed inside a grocery, restaurant, hardware store or subway, no matter how many masks you wear or possess a notarized letter from your PCP attesting to your inability to be vaccinated).

For some additional perspective, when last I checked (2 minutes ago), there had been 38.8 million confirmed cases of Covid in the US (or roughly 0.12% of the 320 million US population), resulting in 637,000 fatalities. These fatalities include those who died long before we knew how to treat it - yet still leaves us with an effective mortality rate of 0.01649%. In comparison, the mortality rates for both SARS and MERS was 9.6% and 34%, respectively, while the fatality rate for swine flu was 0.2%. Thus, while I'm not minimizing the seriousness of Covid, especially the ease with which it is transmitted, I've grown weary of the virtue signaling - ad nauseum - by those who have unabashedly embraced every mandate issued throughout this pandemic, while simultaneously clutching their pearls and gas lighting anyone who has the temerity to question or object to them. I can't help but be reminded of something Benjamin Franklin (yes, that Benjamin Franklin) once said: "Those who would give up a little liberty for a little security - deserve neither." To that, I would also remind everyone that there is no "Pandemic Exemption" in the US Constitution.

But the US Supreme court ruled vaccines were "constitutional" way back when smallpox vaccines were the bogey man. We are guaranteed the right to pursue life.

I will close with a few questions:

Do you berate obese patients (or co-workers, for that matter), when you catch them eating a cheeseburger?

How about smokers with lung cancer?

Addicts who've OD'd on heroin three times in the last year?

Fearful patients who waited too long to have that lump checked out - and now that lump has metastasized throughout his/her body?

Patients who are paralyzed following an MVA in which they were speeding and/or not wearing their seatbelts?

Patients with STD's from having unprotected sex?

A victim of domestic battery who keeps going back to his/her abuser?

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?

No, I don't berate your above list, most of whom have no knowledge of medical science and I don't expect the same standards of behavior from laymen that I expect from nurses. I've accepted that many people don't act in their self interest and there is nothing I can do about it. It's just people being people and I'm just grateful I'm not one of them.

heron, ASN, RN · Aug 29, 2021

Suebee- you are my hero!

subee, MSN, CRNA · Aug 29, 2021

1 minute ago, heron said:

Suebee- you are my hero!

You agree with my cat! I've never been thought of has a hero. Thanks.

heron, ASN, RN · Aug 29, 2021

2 minutes ago, subee said:

You agree with my cat! I've never been thought of has a hero. Thanks.

Smart cat!

jive turkey · Aug 29, 2021

9 hours ago, heron said:

But how could I have missed this one?! Best flounce I’ve seen in a while. He promised to not engage with me again, though. He lied … how very lawyerly!

1.Meanwhile, back at the topic … needless to say, I don’t agree that anyone’s rights include deliberate harm to another. As for employer mandates, unless you have a contract - individual or union - they can fire you for any or no cause except membership in a protected class.

At-will employment, so beloved of libertarians and conservatives everywhere, plus the fact that we have had public health mandates, upheld by the Supreme Court, for over 100 years, makes the whole discussion some what surreal. I mean, so what else is new? SMH What’s so different about this disease vs all the others for which we mandate vaccination?

ETA: interesting that my post got addressed but not Makawake’s much better post saying much the same thing. Does our master debater think he’s punching down?

1. Disagree. Considering the vaccinated can spread the virus still, you can't presume being unvaccinated automatically constitutes causing deliberate harm. People can be tested before work, masks can be worn, temperatures can be checked, symptoms can be acknowledged. My point has been more about previously infected people. After considering their medical history and talking to their doctor, this is the group I don't agree with being forced to take this drug. There are already studies showing reinfection is rare. Even from your favorite, the CDC. I don't agree with "well those studies were before the delta variant" arguments because the vaccines came out right when the variant was discovered.

@macawake

is on my ignore list. I don't see anything she or the several other people have to say. If they are still quoting me and haven't gotten the hint then LOL. I'm all for debate and disagreement but some of you lose your cool and make things personal. Petty fights like that get real boring bro. If I wanted to hear childish name calling and insults, I can listen to my kids do that with each other.

I forgot you were among the several people who's arguments were falling apart so badly you resorted to personal attacks and were supposed to end up on the ignore list. Thanks for reminding me to put you there!

bye bye

toomuchbaloney · Aug 29, 2021

14 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

1. Disagree. Considering the vaccinated can spread the virus still, you can't presume being unvaccinated automatically constitutes causing deliberate harm. People can be tested before work, masks can be worn, temperatures can be checked, symptoms can be acknowledged. My point has been more about previously infected people. After considering their medical history and talking to their doctor, this is the group I don't agree with being forced to take this drug. There are already studies showing reinfection is rare. Even from your favorite, the CDC. I don't agree with "well those studies were before the delta variant" arguments because the vaccines came out right when the variant was discovered.

@macawake

is on my ignore list. I don't see anything she or the several other people have to say. If they are still quoting me and haven't gotten the hint then LOL. I'm all for debate and disagreement but some of you lose your cool and make things personal. Petty fights like that get real boring bro. If I wanted to hear childish name calling and insults, I can listen to my kids do that with each other.

I forgot you were among the several people who's arguments were falling apart so badly you resorted to personal attacks and were supposed to end up on the ignore list. Thanks for reminding me to put you there!

bye bye

Regardless of whether members are ignored, they can use the comments of other members to highlight the circular logic and lack of evidence to support their perpetuation of the idea that requiring vaccination of a health professional is abusive or overreach.

It's instructive to read the comments of members who repeatedly complain about personal remarks and attacks and discover that those comments are a type of projection.

macawake, MSN · Aug 29, 2021

37 minutes ago, jive turkey said:

@macawake

is on my ignore list. I don't see anything she or the several other people have to say. If they are still quoting me and haven't gotten the hint then LOL.

Of course I’ve noticed. I’ve been enjoying the peace. It allows me to address your flawed logic without having to deal with your illogical somersaults. Win-win, wouldn’t you say?

I also noticed your use of the @ when mentioning my name just now ? You sooo wanted me to see this. It’s all rather juvenile but since I have a rather warped sense of humor I am actually a bit amused by the antics.

subee, MSN, CRNA · Aug 29, 2021

2 hours ago, jive turkey said:

1. Disagree. Considering the vaccinated can spread the virus still, you can't presume being unvaccinated automatically constitutes causing deliberate harm. People can be tested before work, masks can be worn, temperatures can be checked, symptoms can be acknowledged. My point has been more about previously infected people. After considering their medical history and talking to their doctor, this is the group I don't agree with being forced to take this drug. There are already studies showing reinfection is rare. Even from your favorite, the CDC. I don't agree with "well those studies were before the delta variant" arguments because the vaccines came out right when the variant was discovered.

@macawake

is on my ignore list. I don't see anything she or the several other people have to say. If they are still quoting me and haven't gotten the hint then LOL. I'm all for debate and disagreement but some of you lose your cool and make things personal. Petty fights like that get real boring bro. If I wanted to hear childish name calling and insults, I can listen to my kids do that with each other.

I forgot you were among the several people who's arguments were falling apart so badly you resorted to personal attacks and were supposed to end up on the ignore list. Thanks for reminding me to put you there!

bye bye

That's right. Eliminate the smarter people on the board. I've never read anything that sounded wonky from that person. But there you go prevaricating again about how vaccinated can still spread covid. I guess, in the grand picture, it doesn't matter that they spread LESS covid? And somehow to you, it's more important to you, personally, to emphasize that the vaccine isn't 100% effective and that's a good reason to be hesitant.

iNurs5, CNA · Aug 30, 2021

16 hours ago, heron said:

But how could I have missed this one?! Best flounce I’ve seen in a while. He promised to not engage with me again, though. He lied … how very lawyerly!

Meanwhile, back at the topic … needless to say, I don’t agree that anyone’s rights include deliberate harm to another. As for employer mandates, unless you have a contract - individual or union - they can fire you for any or no cause except membership in a protected class.

At-will employment, so beloved of libertarians and conservatives everywhere, plus the fact that we have had public health mandates, upheld by the Supreme Court, for over 100 years, makes the whole discussion some what surreal. I mean, so what else is new? SMH What’s so different about this disease vs all the others for which we mandate vaccination?

ETA: interesting that my post got addressed but not Makawake’s much better post saying much the same thing. Does our master debater think he’s punching down?

I'm optimistic and a strong believer.

Ernest · Sep 5, 2021

People keep making judgments about the vaccine while leaving out the controversial aspect. I can be perfectly fine with vaccines, but vehemently disagree with either altering the DNA of my cells or my cells' protein production capacity. In case you do not know, the J&J therapy uses an attenuated adenovirus to insert a gene into your own cell's DNA to then have that cell manufacture a foreign protein. The exact same thing a virus does. So to take that therapy, I must now technically become "part" virus.

The Pfizer vaccine model uses your cells' ribosomes to produce viral proteins. It bypasses the DNA step, but is still the same. Once your cells begin producing a foreign protein, when does it stop. Regardless of the answer, the work of the cell's DNA is being co-opted to produce the proteins of some other organism that is non-human.

Furthermore, in order to convince so many governments, individuals and human institutions to agree to this, the persons in authority have had to leave out many salient details and convince people to "believe" in both the pandemic and the treatment with blind faith in a way we do not "believe" about other similar infections such as the flu.

So, one person's belief in the "system" is not superior to another person's belief in not trusting the system or in trusting God or their religious convictions.

macawake, MSN · Sep 5, 2021

48 minutes ago, Ernest said:

Furthermore, in order to convince so many governments, individuals and human institutions to agree to this, the persons in authority have had to leave out many salient details and convince people to "believe" in both the pandemic and the treatment with blind faith in a way we do not "believe" about other similar infections such as the flu.

There is no polite way to say this. Do you realize how completely nuts the above quote sounds?

Who do you imagine the people who have authority over all the world’s governments are?

48 minutes ago, Ernest said:

… some other organism that is non-human.

This makes me wonder how you sound when you have a cold? I’m invaded by non-human organisms? Such drama. Non-human organism… ?

I’m curious, do you consider your gut microbiome human organisms? OMG, trillions of non-human organisms crawling around our digestive systems ?

I apologize for mocking your post, but it is just too much. There’s a limit to the amount of silliness I can take. Or should I say stomach ?