I am an Oncology nurse working for a hospital for more than 13 years. I live in California and there is now a mandate in place that is requiring me to be vaccinated before Sept. 30th or I will be terminated from my job. Not only do I not feel comfortable to receive a EUV that no long term studies have been documented because it is too new and not FDA approved but I have also witnessed friends as well as patients having severe side effects after receiving vaccination.
I am unclear how an employer has the LEGAL RIGHT to ask me personal questions about my religious beliefs or medical information (vaccination status), where are my HIPAA Rights. Employer vaccine mandates are subject to religious accommodation under the Title VII of the Civil rights act. For personal reasons I will be submitting for religious exemption to hopefully prevent me from losing my job.
I'm not sure what the outcome will be but I am planning to seek employment elsewhere in case I do lose my job and likely it won't be in healthcare. I don't know if this will be the end of my nursing career and if it is I feel extremely sad about that.
What happened to the phrase " my body my choice " ?
I will not be forced to do anything to my body that I do not choose.
Through scripture we know that God values our bodies. Our bodies are said to be a temple of the Holy Spirit, and we are called to take care of and honor God's temple. God's words lead use to use our bodies and the gifts He has given us to achieve the will of God.
Thank you, Grumpy. JT was right to point out that I missed those two items … the problem with reading fast between other chores.
1.What he did NOT do was to was to explain why diabetes and stroke are the same as a world-wide pandemic of an extremely contagious virus
2.This is a common troll tactic: walls of wordy text saying not much of anything, then getting butt-hurt when his/her assertions are challenged -
3.Is JT a troll? I have no idea. I do know that his posts don’t show much knowledge of medicine, nursing or the scientific process. I also know that AN does not require members to be actual nurses.
1. This may be due to reading fast again. I didn't equate diabetes and stroke to COVID. I made reference to society's response to this infectious disease compared to others.
2. Troll accusations typically come around when people don't have good counterarguments and get frustrated.
3. JT isn't a troll. JT is someone with a perspective different from others. When people don't understand or agree, they tend to reply with hostility or unfounded accusations. That's easier than being civil and asking for clarification, making a sincere effort to understand a different perspective, and agreeing to disagree. SAD.
I don't see how you can criticize how much knowledge anyone has about medicine, nursing or scientfic processes when you couldn't identify diseases in plain text.
Heron I'm sure you're a wonderful person. I'm going to find it uninteresting to debate anything further with you because you strayed away from the topic at hand tried to make it personal. Listening to people do that gets boring man, on the real.
The mistake I made was listing the top 10 US killers
Someone asked what other infectious diseases are killing people in large numbers, and I started with that list AND SAID THERE WERE OTHERS NOT IN THE TOP 10. My point wasn't about how many infectious diseases were in the top 10.
No you can't give somebody pneumonia. The cause of it is often contagious. I'm sure outside of work, charity, rescue or caring for a loved one you wouldn't want to hang around someone with pneumonia.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
6 minutes ago, jive turkey said:
No you can't give somebody pneumonia. The cause of it is often contagious. I'm sure outside of work, charity, rescue or caring for a loved one you wouldn't want to hang around someone with pneumonia.
There are causes for pneumonia which have nothing to do with contagions. I worked in a field where aspiration pneumonia and inhalant/chemical pneumonia were not infrequent. We can vaccinate against some of the common causes of contagious pneumonia.
No, you're telling the public about those deaths. How are they relevant to these COVID-19 viruses, isolation, choices of being vaccines or not, and vaccines?
What is your motive and intention for including those comorbidities with the COVID-19? For me, it translates to let the covid go nuts. I'm fine. Once I have it, I have the virus. It doesn't kill me. Evidently, nobody in my sphere at home got the COVID-19 infected. They worked in churches. They are now opting for the antibody tests but too late. (They didn't want the COVID-19 shots but took them. I didn't force or told them to do so. I told them the pros and cons. I encouraged them to phone their doctors or people they trust. They aren't stupid about this COVID-19 because some people they knew got it and were hospitalized).
17 hours ago, jive turkey said:
You aren't potent enough to have any bearing on my personal feelings FYI.
I'm perfectly fine with disagreeing, learning, and being corrected. I don't get angry with anyone having a different view point. The same can't be said for many of you.
What happens when you and other posters are more focused on personal attacks than rational debate, and being "hostile" as you just owned, you stray away from exchanging useful information nurturing your desire to be hostile.
I don't have time to waste satisfying your need to feel empowered
So you can respectfully kick rocks. Added to the list of people who's responses I can't see.
bye bye.
No, I don't need being pleased. I won't argue with people whose maturity stuck in adolescence.
I would be filthy rich if there was another way to guarantee ? effective against the viruses that are evolving without experiments. How can people misunderstand the terms "research" and "experiments" ? However, at personal level, I'm not perfect per se. I don't like inconsistency in my own behaviors. I know I'm a risk taker but it benefits the society or community and me.
Almost everything has been either by creation, chance or accidental discovery.
Lorraine, I’m sorry you’ve been met with so much hostility here. I also work Med-Onc and I am not vaccinated.
I am appalled at the amount of ignorance and name-calling in this forum, especially from older nurses with 40-some years of experience. I just hear regurgitation of television pseudoscience rather than real bedside experience and common sense. And scientific articles, which I read a lot of.
I would NEVER put any of my patients in danger and I’m sure you wouldn’t either.
I’ve been taking care of Covid patients since March of last year, so, a year and a half. I have not gotten Covid nor has my family. I have three friends who got it and their spouses still slept with them and they never got it. OTOH my cousin’s 54-y/o wife died of Covid in July. She had an autoimmune disease and was always a pretty sickly person, but my point is I’m not a Covid denier. I know it’s real.
I’ve had patients cough on me dozens of times. Many times pts on our clean floor, admitted for something totally unrelated to Covid, then it turns out… they have Covid! Well, I still didn’t get it. Nor my coworkers.
My point is UNVACCINATED PEOPLE ARE NOT MORE LIKELY TO SPREAD COVID THAN THE VAXXED. This is asinine. If ANYBODY even read Pfizer’s statements (for example) the vaccine was designed to help lessen symptoms. THE VACCINE DOES NOT PREVENT CONTAGION. It is written in the manufacturer’s information on their website! From the very beginning. I have been trying to EDUCATE people that they can still get it and spread it! And guess what??? They are!!
Do y’all currently work in a hospital? Well I do and I float to the Covid floor A LOT because I’m per diem and some genius in management said a few months ago “there’s hardly any CV right now so let’s go back to floating per diems first again.” Well numbers here in CA have been UP for well over a month and said geniuses forgot to put us back on a rotation up until just 2 days ago.
Of my last 6 shifts I have worked the CV floor 5 shifts (in less than 10 days). ALMOST HALF OUR CV PTS ARE VACCINATED! We have just under 15 staff out with Covid right now, vaccinated!
The vaxxed are the superspreaders! You walk around like you’re impervious but you’re not. At least we unvaxxed are more cautious, and NEWSFLASH: if I’m asymptomatic there’s a good chance I don’t have covid. I get tested TWICE a week! Do you vaxxed RNs get tested twice a week?
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
On 8/26/2021 at 8:57 PM, Naturalist said:
Lorraine, I’m sorry you’ve been met with so much hostility here. I also work Med-Onc and I am not vaccinated.
I am appalled at the amount of ignorance and name-calling in this forum, especially from older nurses with 40-some years of experience. I just hear regurgitation of television pseudoscience rather than real bedside experience and common sense. And scientific articles, which I read a lot of.
I would NEVER put any of my patients in danger and I’m sure you wouldn’t either.
I’ve been taking care of Covid patients since March of last year, so, a year and a half. I have not gotten Covid nor has my family. I have three friends who got it and their spouses still slept with them and they never got it. OTOH my cousin’s 54-y/o wife died of Covid in July. She had an autoimmune disease and was always a pretty sickly person, but my point is I’m not a Covid denier. I know it’s real.
I’ve had patients cough on me dozens of times. Many times pts on our clean floor, admitted for something totally unrelated to Covid, then it turns out… they have Covid! Well, I still didn’t get it. Nor my coworkers.
My point is UNVACCINATED PEOPLE ARE NOT MORE LIKELY TO SPREAD COVID THAN THE VAXXED. This is asinine. If ANYBODY even read Pfizer’s statements (for example) the vaccine was designed to help lessen symptoms. THE VACCINE DOES NOT PREVENT CONTAGION. It is written in the manufacturer’s information on their website! From the very beginning. I have been trying to EDUCATE people that they can still get it and spread it! And guess what??? They are!!
Do y’all currently work in a hospital? Well I do and I float to the Covid floor A LOT because I’m per diem and some genius in management said a few months ago “there’s hardly any CV right now so let’s go back to floating per diems first again.” Well numbers here in CA have been UP for well over a month and said geniuses forgot to put us back on a rotation up until just 2 days ago.
Of my last 6 shifts I have worked the CV floor 5 shifts (in less than 10 days). ALMOST HALF OUR CV PTS ARE VACCINATED! We have just under 15 staff out with Covid right now, vaccinated!
The vaxxed are the superspreaders! You walk around like you’re impervious but you’re not. At least we unvaxxed are more cautious, and NEWSFLASH: if I’m asymptomatic there’s a good chance I don’t have covid. I get tested TWICE a week! Do you vaxxed RNs get tested twice a week?
What more do you want?
Whom are you talking about? I wear a mask everywhere I go and have all Summer long, despite the mask mandates being lifted. (they are back now, thanks to more COVID cases). The unvaxxed are the careless ones where I live. They wear shirts proudly stating they will "never mask and never vaccinate".
And please, no need to shout at people. Your post is so angry and off-putting it's hard to even want to read to understand it.
Let me begin by saying, I signed up to be a volunteer participant in a clinical trial for one of the vaccines, but was not selected (In fact, I was never even contacted). Thus, when I changed jobs in January and learned they'd already scheduled me to receive the first vax dose prior to my start date, I was stoked. Felt a little crappy after the first injection, but much less so than I typically do after the annual flu shot. Four weeks to the minute later, (because that's how they roll), I received the second dose. This time, I was more sore and felt crappier than I did with the first - but still not enough to write home about and was back to baseline in just a couple days. Many of my colleagues were not quite as fortunate and experienced more severe (and persistent) reactions, post-vaccination.
The aforementioned notwithstanding, I was utterly gobsmacked - and at times, appalled - at the level of vitriol directed at the OP. I am obviously not an anti-vaxxer, but certainly understand why so many peeps are hesitant to pull the trigger. For starters:
Given the speed with which these vaccines were developed and subsequently deployed, there is zero data regarding their potential long-term effects - especially with regards to the various population groups out there, such as pregnant women, peeps with specific health conditions/co-morbidities, children and those who have acquired natural immunity from having had (and recovered from) Covid
As for immediate side-effects, it seems like everyone in my department had them - ranging from mild to severe. In the beginning, no one knew if what was being experienced was "normal" or an ADR. It sure didn't instill much confidence in those who were downstream from the trailblazers in front. I would also imagine that the collateral effects on friends and family (as well as others who might have heard 2nd and 3rd hand), might have caused more than a few to tap the brakes on being vaccinated. Speaking of which, you may want to take a gander at the VAERS data base (https://vaers.hhs.gov/). If I had checked it out first, I probably would have been somewhat reticent about getting the vaccine, myself...or tempered my encouragement for others to do so.
The ever-changing guidance/recommendations put forth by the CDC and NIH continue to leave the general population bewildered and confused. First, no mask. Then two masks. Then back to one mask. That subsequently morphed into mask unless you're fully vaccinated. Now we're back to mask even if you are vaccinated. We were three months into the pandemic before masks became de rigueur. Curiously, during that time, I continued to join the teeming masses at Wally World every weekend - and yet, not a single outbreak has been traced back to the maskless shoppers in a single one of their stores during this period. Ditto with airplanes. All those peeps from whom we maintained the enforced 6-feet of distance in the TSA line, were nuts-to-butts getting on, then off, the planes - and in between, we sat just inches from each other for 5-6 hours. Throw into this primordial soup the varying city, county and state mask mandates and the whole country has been left with a collective case of whiplash.
Speaking of masks, as an OR nurse, I am somewhat of a subject matter expert on this and can tell you that the average medical grade (non-N95) masks have an efficacy life-span of roughly 20 minutes. After 20 minutes, they are good for keeping gross contamination from reaching a person's oral or nasal orifices - and that's pretty much it. They damned sure don't filter out particles of genital warts in the smoke created when they are lasered from a patient's nether regions (just ask the nurses who acquired herpes in their oropharanx, after breathing the smoke during one of these procedures). And yet, not a single mask mandate has included minimum specs for minimum efficacy in protecting against Covid-19. If your standard surgical mask can't protect the wearer from herpes particulate, how much protection, really, are the cloth masks everyone wears, actually providing?
Also worth pointing out, during the presidential campaign last year, our current POTUS and V-POTUS BOTH were unequivocal in proclaiming their refusal to get the "Trump vaccine" - then, after taking office, they proclaimed being vaccinated was our "patriotic duty." Basically, they pulled a reverse John Kerry, as they were "against the vaccine before they were for the vaccine." Aside from their being elected, what has changed?
Like the OP, I'm working in California and am under the same state-imposed mandate vis-à-vis vaccination. In practical terms, it doesn't affect me since I am vaccinated. Likewise, the mask mandate is irrelevant, as it was required by my employer long before the state imposed it. Both are now a condition of employment. But...
I have grown increasingly uncomfortable with the expanding number of executive orders and extra-Constitutional mandates/directives emanating from both the state and Federal governments. Just look at New York and how its Executive Orders turned out for nursing home residents. Now, NYC is requiring business owners to verify the vaccine status of everyone who walks through their doors - and has deployed 600 "vaccine cops" to enforce deBlasio's edict ($1000 fine for the first observed failure to verify - and the fines go up from there). Also, there is NO medical exemption, so if you have Lupus or some other condition which would prevent you from receiving the vaccine, you're SOL...you'll never be allowed inside a grocery, restaurant, hardware store or subway, no matter how many masks you wear or possess a notarized letter from your PCP attesting to your inability to be vaccinated).
For some additional perspective, when last I checked (2 minutes ago), there had been 38.8 million confirmed cases of Covid in the US (or roughly 0.12% of the 320 million US population), resulting in 637,000 fatalities. These fatalities include those who died long before we knew how to treat it - yet still leaves us with an effective mortality rate of 0.01649%. In comparison, the mortality rates for both SARS and MERS was 9.6% and 34%, respectively, while the fatality rate for swine flu was 0.2%. Thus, while I'm not minimizing the seriousness of Covid, especially the ease with which it is transmitted, I've grown weary of the virtue signaling - ad nauseum - by those who have unabashedly embraced every mandate issued throughout this pandemic, while simultaneously clutching their pearls and gas lighting anyone who has the temerity to question or object to them. I can't help but be reminded of something Benjamin Franklin (yes, that Benjamin Franklin) once said: "Those who would give up a little liberty for a little security - deserve neither." To that, I would also remind everyone that there is no "Pandemic Exemption" in the US Constitution.
I will close with a few questions:
Do you berate obese patients (or co-workers, for that matter), when you catch them eating a cheeseburger?
How about smokers with lung cancer?
Addicts who've OD'd on heroin three times in the last year?
Fearful patients who waited too long to have that lump checked out - and now that lump has metastasized throughout his/her body?
Patients who are paralyzed following an MVA in which they were speeding and/or not wearing their seatbelts?
Patients with STD's from having unprotected sex?
A victim of domestic battery who keeps going back to his/her abuser?
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
3 minutes ago, ORNurseDewd said:
I will close with a few questions:
Do you berate obese patients (or co-workers, for that matter), when you catch them eating a cheeseburger?
How about smokers with lung cancer?
Addicts who've OD'd on heroin three times in the last year?
Fearful patients who waited too long to have that lump checked out - and now that lump has metastasized throughout his/her body?
Patients who are paralyzed following an MVA in which they were speeding and/or not wearing their seatbelts?
Patients with STD's from having unprotected sex?
A victim of domestic battery who keeps going back to his/her abuser?
Do obese patients endanger other people with their eating habits? If the morbidly obese person publishes garbage about nutrition on a nursing forum could that have the same level of negative impact as publishing vaccine misinformation during a pandemic? There is quite a bit of mistreatment and marginalization of the obese in our society.
Smokers are not contagious. Smoking in public or confined interior spaces is no longer socially acceptable because it adversely affects others.
Addicts do not spread their disease with a cough, sneeze or simple greeting. Nevertheless they are often mistreated in our society.
Hesitating to seek out a potential cancer diagnosis puts no other person at risk and does not overburden hospitals.
STDs already have a well established public health protocol. We can prevent a good many STDs with member masks (condoms) and the diseases are curable. You can't get one by sitting next to someone on the subway.
A victim of abuse is a victim...not a spreader of disease.
We are in a struggle with a dangerous pandemic that is being exacerbated by too many people choosing not to vaccinate for no good reason. Their feelings about how people respond to excuses are not that important in an online forum. This isn't a clinic or a patient/professional relationship of some kind. This is a forum where people discuss issues using facts and evidence to support their beliefs and stances.
Let me begin by saying, I signed up to be a volunteer participant in a clinical trial for one of the vaccines, but was not selected (In fact, I was never even contacted). Thus, when I changed jobs in January and learned they'd already scheduled me to receive the first vax dose prior to my start date, I was stoked. Felt a little crappy after the first injection, but much less so than I typically do after the annual flu shot. Four weeks to the minute later, (because that's how they roll), I received the second dose. This time, I was more sore and felt crappier than I did with the first - but still not enough to write home about and was back to baseline in just a couple days. Many of my colleagues were not quite as fortunate and experienced more severe (and persistent) reactions, post-vaccination.
The aforementioned notwithstanding, I was utterly gobsmacked - and at times, appalled - at the level of vitriol directed at the OP. I am obviously not an anti-vaxxer, but certainly understand why so many peeps are hesitant to pull the trigger. For starters:
Given the speed with which these vaccines were developed and subsequently deployed, there is zero data regarding their potential long-term effects - especially with regards to the various population groups out there, such as pregnant women, peeps with specific health conditions/co-morbidities, children and those who have acquired natural immunity from having had (and recovered from) Covid
As for immediate side-effects, it seems like everyone in my department had them - ranging from mild to severe. In the beginning, no one knew if what was being experienced was "normal" or an ADR. It sure didn't instill much confidence in those who were downstream from the trailblazers in front. I would also imagine that the collateral effects on friends and family (as well as others who might have heard 2nd and 3rd hand), might have caused more than a few to tap the brakes on being vaccinated. Speaking of which, you may want to take a gander at the VAERS data base (https://vaers.hhs.gov/). If I had checked it out first, I probably would have been somewhat reticent about getting the vaccine, myself...or tempered my encouragement for others to do so.
The ever-changing guidance/recommendations put forth by the CDC and NIH continue to leave the general population bewildered and confused. First, no mask. Then two masks. Then back to one mask. That subsequently morphed into mask unless you're fully vaccinated. Now we're back to mask even if you are vaccinated. We were three months into the pandemic before masks became de rigueur. Curiously, during that time, I continued to join the teeming masses at Wally World every weekend - and yet, not a single outbreak has been traced back to the maskless shoppers in a single one of their stores during this period. Ditto with airplanes. All those peeps from whom we maintained the enforced 6-feet of distance in the TSA line, were nuts-to-butts getting on, then off, the planes - and in between, we sat just inches from each other for 5-6 hours. Throw into this primordial soup the varying city, county and state mask mandates and the whole country has been left with a collective case of whiplash.
Speaking of masks, as an OR nurse, I am somewhat of a subject matter expert on this and can tell you that the average medical grade (non-N95) masks have an efficacy life-span of roughly 20 minutes. After 20 minutes, they are good for keeping gross contamination from reaching a person's oral or nasal orifices - and that's pretty much it. They damned sure don't filter out particles of genital warts in the smoke created when they are lasered from a patient's nether regions (just ask the nurses who acquired herpes in their oropharanx, after breathing the smoke during one of these procedures). And yet, not a single mask mandate has included minimum specs for minimum efficacy in protecting against Covid-19. If your standard surgical mask can't protect the wearer from herpes particulate, how much protection, really, are the cloth masks everyone wears, actually providing?
Also worth pointing out, during the presidential campaign last year, our current POTUS and V-POTUS BOTH were unequivocal in proclaiming their refusal to get the "Trump vaccine" - then, after taking office, they proclaimed being vaccinated was our "patriotic duty." Basically, they pulled a reverse John Kerry, as they were "against the vaccine before they were for the vaccine." Aside from their being elected, what has changed?
Like the OP, I'm working in California and am under the same state-imposed mandate vis-à-vis vaccination. In practical terms, it doesn't affect me since I am vaccinated. Likewise, the mask mandate is irrelevant, as it was required by my employer long before the state imposed it. Both are now a condition of employment. But...
I have grown increasingly uncomfortable with the expanding number of executive orders and extra-Constitutional mandates/directives emanating from both the state and Federal governments. Just look at New York and how its Executive Orders turned out for nursing home residents. Now, NYC is requiring business owners to verify the vaccine status of everyone who walks through their doors - and has deployed 600 "vaccine cops" to enforce deBlasio's edict ($1000 fine for the first observed failure to verify - and the fines go up from there). Also, there is NO medical exemption, so if you have Lupus or some other condition which would prevent you from receiving the vaccine, you're SOL...you'll never be allowed inside a grocery, restaurant, hardware store or subway, no matter how many masks you wear or possess a notarized letter from your PCP attesting to your inability to be vaccinated).
For some additional perspective, when last I checked (2 minutes ago), there had been 38.8 million confirmed cases of Covid in the US (or roughly 0.12% of the 320 million US population), resulting in 637,000 fatalities. These fatalities include those who died long before we knew how to treat it - yet still leaves us with an effective mortality rate of 0.01649%. In comparison, the mortality rates for both SARS and MERS was 9.6% and 34%, respectively, while the fatality rate for swine flu was 0.2%. Thus, while I'm not minimizing the seriousness of Covid, especially the ease with which it is transmitted, I've grown weary of the virtue signaling - ad nauseum - by those who have unabashedly embraced every mandate issued throughout this pandemic, while simultaneously clutching their pearls and gas lighting anyone who has the temerity to question or object to them. I can't help but be reminded of something Benjamin Franklin (yes, that Benjamin Franklin) once said: "Those who would give up a little liberty for a little security - deserve neither." To that, I would also remind everyone that there is no "Pandemic Exemption" in the US Constitution.
I will close with a few questions:
Do you berate obese patients (or co-workers, for that matter), when you catch them eating a cheeseburger?
How about smokers with lung cancer?
Addicts who've OD'd on heroin three times in the last year?
Fearful patients who waited too long to have that lump checked out - and now that lump has metastasized throughout his/her body?
Patients who are paralyzed following an MVA in which they were speeding and/or not wearing their seatbelts?
Patients with STD's from having unprotected sex?
A victim of domestic battery who keeps going back to his/her abuser?
Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?
There are so many things illogical about this post that I'm gonna wait for others to chime in. But I also worked in OR's for 40 years and I understand masks. Masks in the OR are worn for only 1 reason, to protect the patient. But masks in a pandemic are so worn for more than to protect someone being the recipient of your germs you spread when you cough or sneeze. Obviously they are a barrier to droplet spread. But in a pandemic , they can serve a different purpose in that they protect the wearer (again, partially) by decreasing the viral load floating around in the air we breathe. Using masks for that reason (preventing of pandemic spread) only works if everyone is masked. One more point. People with medical passes for not being candidates would not be exempt from participating in things requiring a mask mandate. The main reason for most of us to vaccinate is to protect those who can't. when everyone vaccinated, the viral load we are exposed to is reduced to the point that the few people who aren't vaxxed don't have to live in a bubble. And we have something called public health law that is already constitutional. That's why people with resistant TB are forced to be separated from others until after treatment. That's why we can't weaponize HIV or other communicable disease without legal consequences.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
50 minutes ago, subee said:
Also worth pointing out, during the presidential campaign last year, our current POTUS and V-POTUS BOTH were unequivocal in proclaiming their refusal to get the "Trump vaccine" - then, after taking office, they proclaimed being vaccinated was our "patriotic duty." Basically, they pulled a reverse John Kerry, as they were "against the vaccine before they were for the vaccine." Aside from their being elected, what has changed?
That's a misrepresentation of what was actually said. It was and is reasonable to not trust Trump relative to vaccines and that's what was said. There's video evidence to prove your characterization wrong.
What has changed? Nothing has changed, conservative media sources and commentators have misrepresented the truth again and you have repeated them as if they are true. That's the same thing we've been dealing with for quite some time now..."alternate facts" from social conservatives.
Every person has to figure out the risk-benefit ratio. Personally I got the vaccine. But I think it is an egregious violation of personal liberty and civil rights to mandate vaccines. It has turned into an authoritarian situation that is medical theocracy. And people dare to criticize the Middle East?
jive turkey
677 Posts
1. This may be due to reading fast again. I didn't equate diabetes and stroke to COVID. I made reference to society's response to this infectious disease compared to others.
2. Troll accusations typically come around when people don't have good counterarguments and get frustrated.
3. JT isn't a troll. JT is someone with a perspective different from others. When people don't understand or agree, they tend to reply with hostility or unfounded accusations. That's easier than being civil and asking for clarification, making a sincere effort to understand a different perspective, and agreeing to disagree. SAD.
I don't see how you can criticize how much knowledge anyone has about medicine, nursing or scientfic processes when you couldn't identify diseases in plain text.
Heron I'm sure you're a wonderful person. I'm going to find it uninteresting to debate anything further with you because you strayed away from the topic at hand tried to make it personal. Listening to people do that gets boring man, on the real.