Terminated for typing a petition

pedinurse05 · Dec 27, 2005

If you feel you need an atty., you should get one on your own. In no way should a pt. be paying for you to have an atty.
Oy vey!

:yeahthat: your client should not hire you a lawyer. Your best bet is to recognize your mistakes and move on before the board takes action (ie, client getting lawyer for you). Nursing is caring--and boundaries are caring too...maintain a professional stance at all times--even when it is tough....good intentions can go bad fast.

babynurselsa, RN · Dec 27, 2005

Most employers have strict policies about engaging in ANY sort of petitions.

Several years ago at a facility I worked at we had one nurse on the night shift who handled the night shift schedule. She was available to us on that shift to make requests etc. Well the powers that be one day decided to give this job to a person on day shift who did not give a rat's fart about requests or preferences and she was largely unavailable to the night shift.

One of the nurses typed a letter that we all signed simply requesting that the former scheduler be given back this duty. We were all called in and reprimanded for participating in a "petition." This was considered a serious offense by the hospital.

They don't want to allow for the staff to band together. They are afraid that something to benefit the staff may result.

FocusRN · Dec 27, 2005

Ohh my, a lot of these replies really stun me. Were you wrong in any way shape or form? In my opinion NOOOOO!!! First off a patient asked you for a favor that not only was not intended to hurt anyone, it didn't. This is the same as if a patient ask you to type a letter to his/her family. I would assume that you used his/her word in his/her petition. Then you signed it. Well, so what. You supported something that you believed in. Was it illegal? NOOOOOOOO!!! They fired you and didn't have proper grounds to do so after 4 years of service. It doesn't matter why the other nurse got fired or quit, that is not the point. A petition is a form of speech, and in this country we have the freedom of speech, as long as it is not slanderous. I say forget about them ,and find a new job. That is my advice for you and I will leave that as my advice for you. As for me, I get up in the morning,suit up, get over there, and run it down to management where they can stick their termination papers. And on the way out I would make a call in front of the highest level of management that I can reach, call my friend over at state, and tell her every critical deficiency that I've seen in that last six months, tell her to pop up any time to check it out, and walk out with a smile.

fergus51 · Dec 27, 2005

We have freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean there will never be consequences to that speech. What the op did may have been morally right for her, but I can't imagine an employer thinking it was anything but unprofessional. If you have problems with the way the facility is run, you adress it with your supervisor, not with a resident in the form of a petition.

sjt9721, BSN, RN · Dec 27, 2005

We have freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean there will never be consequences to that speech. What the op did may have been morally right for her, but I can't imagine an employer thinking it was anything but unprofessional. If you have problems with the way the facility is run, you adress it with your supervisor, not with a resident in the form of a petition.

:yeahthat:

AtlantaRN, RN · Dec 27, 2005

unfortunately, if it's a right to work state, they can fire you for any reason...

I reported an employer for medicare fraud; they fired me for "incomplete documentation," because I wouldn't falsify documentation (they wanted me to document that LPN"S and PCA's were giving 24h care in a home hospice setting so they could bill medicare $695/day...when in reality they were sending out temp personnel to "sit" with dying patients), they fired me and department of labor said "incomplete documentation"...

I am so much better off, but it devastated me at the time...

I did the right thing, but I got punished...much better job now...

when I went on interviews; I would say "ethical conflict", with patient care...and I didn't have a bit of trouble getting another job...in fact, now that part of caremaster no longer exists as a result of my whistleblowing...

God doesn't close a door without opening a window...

Good luck to you, you will do fine...

linda

renerian, BSN, RN · Dec 27, 2005

Very interesting thread.

Yes everyone has free speech rights but in reality not at work (if you want to keep a job) Not meant to be mean but life's reality.

Yes it was kind to help the patient but a repercussion most likely was probable.

Petitions do disrupt the workplace (from an employee and manager perspective having been on both sides of that fence)

I would highly discourage anyone from letting any patient pay for anything, legal or otherwise, of yours personal or professional, as it displays an idea of breech of ethical boundries.

I agree another employees HR records/history is not a matter of public record for other staff or patient's discussion.

I agree another employees HR terminations/hiring/promotions are not other employee's or certainly not patient's business. (boundries)

I would highly suggest checking your HR handbook to see if there is a policy on similar activites and if you were in policy/procedure violation.

I would personally go and not look back...........keep your nose clean..Good luck,

renerian

southern_rn_brat · Dec 27, 2005

There was a nurse let go in our facility and the patients loved him. They were very upset about it. They got a petition together, with the help of some CNAs and got the whole resident council to sign it along with almost the whole evening shift staff of CNAs AND nurses. The enitre staff almost got fired.

Signing a petition AGAINST your employer is against your company's policies and you should know that. I would think that the fact that you not only typed it but then signed it is what sealed your fate.

The only thing that saved these people was that there were so many of them that it was impossible to provide adequate patient care if they were all terminated.

Oh, and the reason the nurse was let go? Drugs. But none of them knew that, all they knew was that they liked him. It wasnt like we could have said "helloooooo? we fired him for drugs!". You cant tell why someone is fired.

But to get residents involved in staffing issues should clearly be something you shouldnt do.

Next time suggest the patient talk to the resident council or the administrator with his concerns, call the social worker, but stay out of it.

The staff should always appear to be a team to ensure that the patients are confident they are getting the best care. What does it tell our patients if we are discussing staffing or even personal issues of other staff members with patients??

Always think something though. Play the whole tape to the end before acting on an emotion.

Good luck to you on your next job. Just take this as a big learning lesson and move on. Allowing a patient to retain a lawyer for you is only getting you in deeper.

Catsmeow · Dec 27, 2005

Ohh my, a lot of these replies really stun me. Were you wrong in any way shape or form? In my opinion NOOOOO!!! First off a patient asked you for a favor that not only was not intended to hurt anyone, it didn't. This is the same as if a patient ask you to type a letter to his/her family. I would assume that you used his/her word in his/her petition. Then you signed it. Well, so the f*ck what. You supported something that you believed in. Was it illegal? NOOOOOOOO!!!

I'm not a law clerk, but from what I researched on copyright and slander last night (out of curiosity) I believe the OP would be considered the author (and there for liable) for the "published work," regardless that it was the sentiment of someone else. If she can prove that she was hired by the resident and it wasn't her original work she could have a bit more ground to stand on legally.

Depending on the contents of the letter, if harrassment was mentioned, (hopefully it was not) the OP can be accused of slander if the document is taken to court. It is "illegal" to make unprovable comments against another person (the supervisor/the harrassment) and she can be sued over it, hence why stick your neck out like this in a situation where you can't be 100% sure there was truly harrassment taking place? Now if she had personally seen it, then she's a witness, but otherwise it's all hearsay. That's my greatest concern for him/her. The greatest check on "Freedom of Speech" is... "is it true."

Whistleblowers on abuses (the harrassment) are indeed brave, upstanding people, but they must always consider if they have enough PROOF to go public before doing it, in order to not only protect themselves but also to make sure they are not unfairly accusing an innocent person. We don't have enough information but the sense I get is the OP is just going by the word of this other nurse.

That he/she was fired could be the least of "punishments," and hopefully the OP will consult his/her lawyer for clarification of all this.

Cats

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Dec 27, 2005

What the op did may have been morally right for her, but I can't imagine an employer thinking it was anything but unprofessional. If you have problems with the way the facility is run, you adress it with your supervisor, not with a resident in the form of a petition.

:yeahthat:

FocusRN · Dec 28, 2005

I'm not a law clerk, but from what I researched on copyright and slander last night (out of curiosity) I believe the OP would be considered the author (and there for liable) for the "published work," regardless that it was the sentiment of someone else. If she can prove that she was hired by the resident and it wasn't her original work she could have a bit more ground to stand on legally.
Depending on the contents of the letter, if harrassment was mentioned, (hopefully it was not) the OP can be accused of slander if the document is taken to court. It is "illegal" to make unprovable comments against another person (the supervisor/the harrassment) and she can be sued over it, hence why stick your neck out like this in a situation where you can't be 100% sure there was truly harrassment taking place? Now if she had personally seen it, then she's a witness, but otherwise it's all hearsay. That's my greatest concern for him/her. The greatest check on "Freedom of Speech" is... "is it true."
Whistleblowers on abuses (the harrassment) are indeed brave, upstanding people, but they must always consider if they have enough PROOF to go public before doing it, in order to not only protect themselves but also to make sure they are not unfairly accusing an innocent person. We don't have enough information but the sense I get is the OP is just going by the word of this other nurse.
That he/she was fired could be the least of "punishments," and hopefully the OP will consult his/her lawyer for clarification of all this.
Cats

It is not illegal to make unprovable comments about someone. It it illegal to make comments that you know are are false, and you are doing so with malicious intent. So even if she did say or write that this nurse was wronged by management, and discriminated aginst, and was fired with no cause; it still can't be considered salnder or libel (slander in written form), unless she knew that this things were not true. I can say that anyone is a tramp, and I think she/he has had sex will hundreds of people for things like a sandwich. And guess what, if that is what I think, and I don't KNOW it to be false, well hey that is my opinion and is protected by my first amendment right. I know that to be the case, because of my own personal experince with the suject matter. If anyone can't tell,I speak my mind and usually don't hold my tongue for anyone.

"United States law dictates that for something to be considered libel it must be proven that the one making the libelous charges did so with malicious intent and with full knowledge that the statements were false. Furthermore personal opinion is protected as a First Amendment right."

Catsmeow · Dec 28, 2005

"United States law dictates that for something to be considered libel it must be proven that the one making the libelous charges did so with malicious intent and with full knowledge that the statements were false. Furthermore personal opinion is protected as a First Amendment right."

Hi :)

It's possible I could be in error, however it's my understanding this above only applies to public figures. (Govt officials, pop stars, lol, etc.) Otherwise it only has to be proved that it harmed someone's reputation and that it was not true. Could you give your reference for the above quote? I'd like to know if I'm wrong, but here's what I find:

"The defamatory statement must also have been made with fault. The extent of the fault depends primarily on the status of the plaintiff. Public figures, such as government officials, celebrities, well-known individuals, and people involved in specific public controversies, are required to prove actual malice, a legal term which means the defendant knew his statement was false or recklessly disregarded the truth or falsity of his statement. In most jurisdictions, private individuals must show only that the defendant was negligent: that he failed to act with due care in the situation."

This could well apply to the OP, she/he showed disregard in following the chain of command, did not have proof of the claims, etc. This is all speculation though, who knows if the OP included alleged harrassment in her petition.

Depending on HOW it was written, I believe you're very right, it could be classified as opinion, if for instance they didn't come out and accuse the company or supervisor of harrassment or allowing it, and simply stuck to the fact that the nurse was a good nurse and they wished she'd return, or only related abuse on the part of management they actually witnessed. What I feared they did however, kinda as the OP indicated, was went off the word of the "other nurse" about the harrassment and included in the petition.

No way to tell without reading the original document, but my point was this is something she should look into to protect herself/himself before suing... I feared they'd end up on the wrong end of the law suit. It's my understanding these cases are incredibly hard to actually get a ruling on and settle most of the time, but it could run up a huge debt and a lot of stress.

Cats

http://www.medialaw.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Public_Resources/Libel_FAQs/Libel_FAQs.htm