Having worked in a country which has socialized medicine I can certainly see the pit falls and the benefits. What I don't understand is the fear behind having socialized medicine In my opinion socialized medicine has more positive benefits than negative benefits.
The first and the most obvious concern is the cost to the patient and their family, we all know how devastating an illness can be for patients and their family many times I have witnessed the despair when a diagnoses meant further treatment which insurances question and in some cases wont cover. I have seen patients needing costly drugs to keep them alive and being unable to afford them, causing repeated admissions to repair the damage so called none compliance has caused. The first question in none compliance is were the pts actually refusing to take their medication or was it simply they could not afford to buy their medication because they don't have enough money and other bills need to be paid first? If the real reason is the cost then surely it would be more simple of we provided these medications at a more effective price or that all medications cost $5 no matter what they had? Outrageous I hear you shout but the cost of the repeated admission is far more costly than by helping prevent a repeat admission, by providing medicine they can afford.
How about blood tests could these not be done in the doctors office before the pt leaves for home and forgets to go and have a blood draw, or simply cannot get to the lab to have them drawn. I have personally waited in doctors office hours (and paid for the privilege) then been sent to the lab, miles away to sit and wait for blood work to be done. Why could the doctors not employ somebody to be at the office to draw blood on patients?
We should be looking at improving preventative medicine rather than patch it up and see.
Many times I have seen patients discharged with a new diagnoses of diabetes, no follow up at home can be organised because in my city nothing exists to assist these people. There should be a diabetic home nurse who monitors these patients in their own home-rationale, this would again help prevent admissions for diabetic complications, and none compliance.
So you wonder what has this got to do with socialized medicine. Well, in the UK if you have...
Children
Over 60 for women and over 65 for men
Diabetes
Asthma
Thyroid problems, etc...
...then you get all your medicines for free.
There are in place specialized RN's who focus is on preventative care in the community. There are telephone help lines which anybody can utilize for free.
Maternity care is free a midwife will be assigned to you for the duration of your pregnancy and up to 6 weeks later. The cost of the birth-nothing no matter how you deliver.
I have been asked what kind of care do you receive in a socialized medicine country and I ask them, I am a product of socialized medicine you tell me how my care differs from nurses who have paid outrageous amounts of money to train as a nurse?
Of course even in the UK you can have private care if you chose to pay, this is an advantage if you need hip replacements, knee replacements, eye surgeries-other wise you may have to wait. There are initiatives in place to reduce waiting times for surgeries in the NHS and I hear that dr's can now book surgeries from their office at hospitals all over the UK which helps reduce waiting times, plus hospitals get fined if they don't meet their quota.
I agree MRI's and CT's are not as freely available, but again initiatives are in place to improve the waiting times. Emergency care no different all patients will receive emergency care.
Poor conditions yes there are poor hospitals and there are excellent hospitals, no different to Phoenix AZ.
Sharrie, you're wasting your breath (your typing) :) -- people who think like NGFF have already made up their minds and aren't interested in any evidence that conflicts with their opinions.
Specializes in Med Surg,Hospice,Home Care, Case Mgmt.
Yes, I am well aware of the "poo poo" of John Rawls through my studies of John Locke. Redistribution, free handouts, and bringing the poor up on the backs of others who've earned it through their sweat and hard work. Yes, I'm well aware of his NONSENSE and the ultimately unsustainable concepts that he wrote about. But at least you know where your MARXISTS AND SOCIALISTS beliefs come from. You're the exception and not the rule like so many others on this website who take marching from the ANA and other intellectual midgets who spew this "poo poo".
1a2s3d -- you are channeling Glenn Beck. I think you have been watching too much of him.
Specializes in psychiatric, UR analyst, fraud, DME,MedB.
All I know from my very credible( Phi Beta Kappa, Honors Graduate, Masters degree in Clinical Research, and now Medical Student) daughter is she presented herself to several emergency rooms and was turned away from the person who sits at the desk. One did tell her a place to buy crutches ( without any instruction). She was in Melbourne and she was originally staying in Sydney. I believe she went to one in Melbourne and the second in Sydney. I would not know how I would find a GP in Australia, obviously She didn't I guess she and I are not as smart as you Ghilbert. I know when she was sick with a fever and I had the University intervene it took them half a day to find a GP to see her. I guess the University is not as smart as you either. As I had posted previously she had access to the credit line on my credit card and we could have transferred money in a minute.
I have to add my daughter prior to this had traveled to Europe, Asia, and Africa alone as a teenager to visit my sister, so she is well traveled and not naive but obviously stupider than the average Australian according to you. She is a healthy person and has no medical issues other than running a high fever when sick.
Not only did I find this practice horrible but heartless. I did work for an insurance company at one point in my career and the insurance company often flew patients home since they felt the care rendered in Australia was below par. It was the insurance company's policy not to fly people home sick to air vac home was more expensive than treatment abroad but the care had to be equal to local care.
Also in my 30 years of professional practice I have never seen a patient turned away. I have never seen another nurse or doctor turn a patient away this is 3 times more evidence my 3o years verses your ten.. Using your logic since YOU find it hard to believe my story, the this does not happen is the US or are you implying you are reliable than me ?
Back to the issue of socialized medicine, for this not so bright family, who probably should never travel , I think I can say, my family is average intelligence for an American. That Americans would not be able to use Socialized Medicine the Australian Version.
:sniff:Wow , you are really angry and hurting ?? I just have to put in my 1 cent here. How high was her fever? There must be a reason why she was refused ??? In ER , we have a triage as you all know, so it sounds like her fever was not high or bad enough to be admitted? Who knows ?? but your anger and condescending words to one of us overshadowed your daughters cause ! Do you relaize that ? Throwing around your weight in academic excellence , and what else?? oh , putting his ideas down because he is only 10 years tenure in comparison to your 30 years? Issues and baggages need to be taken care of , or it will just keep on spreading, in all areas of your life. There was nothing in his writing that put you down or you daughter. I 'm sorry to point this out , but you are just bleeding all over the place.:heartbeat Be !
All I know on the subject on nurses travelling overseas is that one nurse I trained with moved to the US. As I type seven of my former colleagues are in the UK (I just had dinner with them in London), five are working in other European countries, and over thirty others have worked in the UK in the last five years. American nurses may not generally be particularly interested in working abroad, but that's not the case for everyone.
Aussie nurses have something of a tradition of spending a year or two early in their careers working and travelling abroad. Why don't any of them want to work in the US instead? The two biggest reasons I've hears are the cost and inequity of health care and the high rate of litigation, followed by a desire to see more of the world rather than just one (admittedly large and diverse) country. After all, we have one of those ourselves!
Specializes in psychiatric, UR analyst, fraud, DME,MedB.
Not one of these people that you listed are currently working in Europe. Who know how soon they will be back here. American hospitals have thousands upon thousands of people who came THROUGH Europe or FROM Europe,crossed an ocean,traversed immigration,started in jobs way below their education and experience.........all to work in an American hospital. I personally have met many. Why would you do all of that ? I have asked.
More OPPORTUNITY for ME AND MY CHILDREN ! Walk into any hospital in the US and you can meet them too.
We are all different ...do not forget. What turns one on , may turn others off . I for one is always open to something new and different , while it may scare others out of their complacency couch ! :chuckle
Specializes in psychiatric, UR analyst, fraud, DME,MedB.
I think you need to read Lauritasols account a little more carefully, she is a US citizen who is currently working in the UK, there are plenty of others that want to come and work here in those links
Additionally, from personal experience, I am a recruiter in the NHS and I regularly get applications from US nurses to come and work in my area in the UK. Their reasons for wanting to come, opportunity for myself and my family, and to experience other cultures.
I am not saying that people don't travel and want to work in the US, personally it's not something I would ever want to do, I have ample opportunity and an excellent standard of living here in the UK. Do you honestly believe that there are not US nurses who don't want to travel and work in Europe.
Experiencing another culture is one of the good things a person can do. It is a mind opener and it teaches you to think out of the box ! You realize there are so many different ways to get to one point from another point!!! Only a different culture can give you this kind of impact of awareness !!!!
:sniff:Wow , you are really angry and hurting ?? I just have to put in my 1 cent here. How high was her fever? There must be a reason why she was refused ??? In ER , we have a triage as you all know, so it sounds like her fever was not high or bad enough to be admitted? Who knows ?? but your anger and condescending words to one of us overshadowed your daughters cause ! Do you relaize that ? Throwing around your weight in academic excellence , and what else?? oh , putting his ideas down because he is only 10 years tenure in comparison to your 30 years? Issues and baggages need to be taken care of , or it will just keep on spreading, in all areas of your life. There was nothing in his writing that put you down or you daughter. I 'm sorry to point this out , but you are just bleeding all over the place.:heartbeat Be !
Thank you for your concern, I believe her fever was over 104F, she got medical intervention after a US University Official found a doctor. I forgot to add several other US Students were also ill and unable to find care in Australia All these students paid a similar fee to access the Australian healthcare. Please read the whole thread. My point it was not Universal Care for my daughter.
Hi MedSurg - I don't get universal health care in foreign countries, either (with the exception of reciprocal countires like NZ and the UK). That's why I have travel insurance when I go overseas, even to countries with a reciprocal agreement.
You've mentioned paying $500 to the Australian government - was that a form of insurance? I ask because I wasn't aware that was an option, not because I'm doubting you. I can see how you could feel doubted or defensive here, particularly because your daughter was in difficulty twice when she was far fromhome and you were unable to help her, so I wanted to be clear.
Show me one, just one government program that is run efficiently and effectively! Why do we think the government can make the situation better? I personally like being able to go to the doctor when I want and not have to wait months and months for elective non life threatening procedures. Don't be fooled into thinking that you can get all the "free" health care you want. I have a friend who's mother died waiting for cancer treatment in Canada. Aside from the inadequacies that national programs have, we also have to think about the cost. It might be "free" to everyone but not to the people who actually work. Countries that have plans like this have enormous amounts of taxes taken out to fund these programs. I personally rather pay for my own health insurance rather than everyone else and their brother too.
This is a very interesting subject. Does anyone know anything about the healthcare in Australia and New Zealand?
I come from a country with socialized medicine (Eastern Europe and currently living in the USA). It might have not been the greatest but you still had access to healthcare and didn't get a bill. If you needed an emergency appendectomy you had it. We still had to pay for all prescription medications but for certain conditions there was a discount on medications or they were free. For years and years people pointed Sweden as the country with the "best" socialized healthcare system.
I was worked as nurse at USSR and Russia. Socialised medicine - it is horrobol. There is no free medecine.
Let me tell how it works
Hospital get procsimatly $16 per day for patien. Count cost of medicine (prise like in USA ) + cost of food + work of nurse doctor, nurse and ect. + all suplai. The average doctor's salary is roughly comparable to that of the average industrial worker. As resolt Patients must bring sheets, blankets and pillows, as well as DRAG! Everything! In Russia, the family must make food for the patient and bring it to them in the hospital.
REMEMBER IT IS SOCIALISED MEDICINE!
There is long waiting list for diagnostic procedire, for operation. There is a private western-style healthcare is quite expensive ( cost thr seme as in USA) and it is usually necessary to pay for treatment up front.
Free in medicine it means some people will get averything, rest of people will get zero!
Do you want to work in this socialised sistem? I DON NOT!
Welcome to the USA, where the only form of medical care available is the western style of expensive up front payment, care. Even if you have insurance, you still have to make a (small, anywhere from $5. to $50) payment before seeing a doctor or nurse practitioner or physician's assistant.
For people over 65 years of age, there is Medicare, which some people think (mistakenly) is like socialized "medicine". I paid from mine, in every paycheck I received while I worked, (that was mandatory)from the age of 23 until I was 65 years old. I don't know if there is a specific time that working people have to pay into that plan before they're eligible to partake of it at 65 years of age. I do know that the amount you get at 65 years of age, every month, depends on how much money you earned (it is mandatory to have a % of earnings taken from paychecks for it).
What I do know, is that for a very long time, though it happens less now, men made much more money than women, so when a woman turns 65 years of age, she can get half of her husband's "social security" money, as half of that is usually more than the amount she earned all the years she worked. The amount of social security that comes from similar (higher) mandatory payments taken from paychecks was supposed to support retired seniors. That program is in great trouble financially, as the men who set it up (at that time no women were in government) made arrangements by law, that enables all the wives a man ever had, to get half of his share, while he got the entire amount when he turned 65. So if a man married 4 times (not as uncommon as it once was), 4 women get half his alottment, which amounts to twice what he gets, and he gets another whole payment. That means that one man's payments into the system (that has no record of how many wives he had) can result in 3 whole monthly payments from social security. That way, he isn't liable for more divorce support payments when they're older. Poor planning!
The Reform of Health Care bill (law) that has caused so much outcry from doctors who convinced patients that it was bad, even before copies of it were available to read, as they immediately realised that they would not be able to make millions of dollars a year, as they do now. Insurance companies that want total control of medical care costs, to make the most money possible, and pharmaceutical companies that want to charge very high prices for their products have "lobbyists" who are paid huge amounts of money to persuade the politicians not to vote for programs their employers don't want.
The pharmaceutical companies lie, saying that the high prices charged are due to research they had to finance while developing new drugs. However all drugs are made through government and private charity grants, and any expense paid by the companies is deductable from their taxes!
There is also what is called a "hidden agenda" which is known as (dirty) political influence, happening. A Senator was able to ensure that his state would not have to pay for medical care of any of the people living there, in return for his vote for the reform bill. That means that all the other states will pay for the people in that state's health care.
What is planned, is definitely not socialized medicine as it involves insurance companies that profit greatly from the high premiums paid to them by employers and employees (originally, employees were not supposed to pay the premiums, as their salaries included that). These companies try very hard to keep medical expenses down, so they can profit more, and do not insure people who have "preexisting conditions" like diabetes, cancer, bone and inherited abnormalities, heart or lung diseases, and all the developmental disabilities that have been funded by the government successfully here for a long time. The people with those conditions can only receive help from the government if they don't work, so rehabilitation isn't an option for them most of the time.
Since mental diseases are thought to be caused by patients even though there has been proof of physical causes for hundreds of years, people here are embarressed to have such a problem. The specialists who care for these patients charge very large fees, and prescribe medications for them, without seeing those patients often enough to know if the medicine is doing any good.
Even children are treated that way, sometimes by a teacher recommending the medication for a child who is unmanageable. Usually that does more harm than good.
Dental care and vision correction is not being provided at all in the proposed law. It is well known that infections arising from rotted teeth cause heart diseases. Without corrected vision, no one can do an adequate job, or read materials necessary for their well being. In that way, not much has changed since the industrial revolution.
Although working conditions in the USA look much better than facilities in Russia and other countries, there really isn't an improvement in actual health care.
The reason people are afraid of change in health care here, as they don't know what it is and many think any change is bad. Politicians take advantage of the lack of knowledge people have, and let them know only their viewpoint about laws. It is up to the votong public to let their representatives in government hear their opinions of proposed laws that they can actually read. Most of us find the wording of laws very cumbersoime, and they are worded in lawyer-speak which is hard tro get through, much less understand, so we give up, saying that's what elected officials have been voted into their positions to do.
Yet we don't know those who get our votes, or we don't take the time to vote, or read what is on the ballot, which is why some very bad laws have gotten through, which yield monetary benefit for few people and hardly any services for those who pay for it.
The above could be called "Lois 'splains It All" (from a weekly TV program that was popular in the 1950s called "I love Lucy". In that series, Lucy was a much maligned ditzy woman/housewife who made fun of her foreign born husband, especially when he attempted to "'splain it all". Her efforts to show that she could do whatever he could, were shown as hilarious.......
Lenna, I hope the information I've given you, rounds out what you may already have been told, that passage of this bill means that our medical care will resemble that provided in Russia. The reason "socialized" has been used in reference to the Reform of Health Care Bill, is that those opposed to it know that any form of socialism has been viewed with fear, here. Many bad things have happened in this country that exploited peoples' fear of socialism.
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Experiencing another culture is one of the good things a person can do. It is a mind opener and it teaches you to think out of the box ! You realize there are so many different ways to get to one point from another point!!! Only a different culture can give you this kind of impact of awareness !!!!
elkpark
14,633 Posts
Sharrie, you're wasting your breath (your typing) :) -- people who think like NGFF have already made up their minds and aren't interested in any evidence that conflicts with their opinions.