Socialized Medicine the myths and the facts

Having worked in a country which has socialized medicine I can certainly see the pit falls and the benefits. What I don't understand is the fear behind having socialized medicine In my opinion socialized medicine has more positive benefits than negative benefits. Nurses Announcements Archive Article

The first and the most obvious concern is the cost to the patient and their family, we all know how devastating an illness can be for patients and their family many times I have witnessed the despair when a diagnoses meant further treatment which insurances question and in some cases wont cover. I have seen patients needing costly drugs to keep them alive and being unable to afford them, causing repeated admissions to repair the damage so called none compliance has caused. The first question in none compliance is were the pts actually refusing to take their medication or was it simply they could not afford to buy their medication because they don't have enough money and other bills need to be paid first? If the real reason is the cost then surely it would be more simple of we provided these medications at a more effective price or that all medications cost $5 no matter what they had? Outrageous I hear you shout but the cost of the repeated admission is far more costly than by helping prevent a repeat admission, by providing medicine they can afford.

How about blood tests could these not be done in the doctors office before the pt leaves for home and forgets to go and have a blood draw, or simply cannot get to the lab to have them drawn. I have personally waited in doctors office hours (and paid for the privilege) then been sent to the lab, miles away to sit and wait for blood work to be done. Why could the doctors not employ somebody to be at the office to draw blood on patients?

We should be looking at improving preventative medicine rather than patch it up and see.

Many times I have seen patients discharged with a new diagnoses of diabetes, no follow up at home can be organised because in my city nothing exists to assist these people. There should be a diabetic home nurse who monitors these patients in their own home-rationale, this would again help prevent admissions for diabetic complications, and none compliance.

So you wonder what has this got to do with socialized medicine. Well, in the UK if you have...

  • Children
  • Over 60 for women and over 65 for men
  • Diabetes
  • Asthma
  • Thyroid problems, etc...

...then you get all your medicines for free.

There are in place specialized RN's who focus is on preventative care in the community. There are telephone help lines which anybody can utilize for free.

Maternity care is free a midwife will be assigned to you for the duration of your pregnancy and up to 6 weeks later. The cost of the birth-nothing no matter how you deliver.

I have been asked what kind of care do you receive in a socialized medicine country and I ask them, I am a product of socialized medicine you tell me how my care differs from nurses who have paid outrageous amounts of money to train as a nurse?

Of course even in the UK you can have private care if you chose to pay, this is an advantage if you need hip replacements, knee replacements, eye surgeries-other wise you may have to wait. There are initiatives in place to reduce waiting times for surgeries in the NHS and I hear that dr's can now book surgeries from their office at hospitals all over the UK which helps reduce waiting times, plus hospitals get fined if they don't meet their quota.

I agree MRI's and CT's are not as freely available, but again initiatives are in place to improve the waiting times. Emergency care no different all patients will receive emergency care.

Poor conditions yes there are poor hospitals and there are excellent hospitals, no different to Phoenix AZ.

Questions??

Specializes in Advanced Practice, surgery.
Small aside, last time we flew to London a lady slipped in the exit lounge. She was taken to hospital splinted, given an Rx for pain and Canadian cane crutches, a follow up before she was to leave and charged ZERO. Is that common?

Yes, no-one would be charged for any emergency treatment regardless of the nationality

Everyone is, to a certain extent, afraid of change. We just had a hugh, disaster happen within our economy. The jobs have not yet returned. Our institutions are changing, and people seem to be afraid of this health care change because it represents yet more change to our instituitions. Also, they don't yet know the consequences.

What I have a hard time understanding is why people wouldn't be more afraid of leaving things the way they are than they are of changing them.

Indeed everyone tends to be leary of change but at this point any change to the health care system in the US is better than what we have now. Last week I had a patient from Canada. He was "patched up" and sent home where he could receive the assistance he needed without losing his house. My husband and I pay $1200/mo for health care coverage that doesn't technically cover us. Why are vision and dental always excluded? Are they not part of our anatomy?

:stdnrsrck:

Yeah, i have a question....who's going to pay for it?:twocents:

Specializes in psychiatric, UR analyst, fraud, DME,MedB.

:cool:Who is going to pay for it? Who do you think is paying what we have now? ...only now the system is insufficient, unfair, neglectful and inefficient and excessively expensive or for profit , at the expense of a persons health needs.

Yes, we need a change and thank God to the present administration , they got this through , though limping in the process, but got it going. Clinton and past president , including senator Kennedy , tried the healthcare reform , but strong and powerful opponents of the reform blocked it to protect their vulgar profits from the healthcare industry. We need to support and embrace this change for eventually we will have health care available for everyone for the American people ! Don't you want this????? I really can not understand what is the fuss of the health reform ---it is good for everybody, and the government will not be "stuck" w/ people who were rejected by the private health insurance, because of non affordable premiums and pre- existing conditions.

:confused: so what is fuss????????

Specializes in OB, HH, ADMIN, IC, ED, QI.

Answers to posts #413 and #414

Canada's medical programs don't cover vision, hearing or dental, either. You can sure tell that by going to the offices of those uncovered services. They are state of the art gorgeous, just like those in the USA! However the doctors' offices and hospitals look like poor children by comparison, which is due to emphasis placed on paying doctors, labs, X-ray, etc. as their priority. Equipment that will change soon after it's installed, isn't at each facility because hospitals don't vie for business - it's available for those who need to have studies done, just at regional hospitals and distributed evenly throughout a region.

When I went home to Toronto a few decades ago, I wanted to have medical care for a back injury I'd sustained. I was afraid to have the work done in the US because I knew that surgery might be advocated by avoricious surgeons based on their needs, rather than mine. When I mentioned that even the simplest initial X-ray hadn't been done at the time I went for care right after I injured my back, as it was considered too expensive by my insurance company then, the Canadian doctor mused, "Oh, you need to think of that in the USA". In other words, when tests, x-rays, etc. are deemed necessary by a physician, it's done. There hasn't been any "kickback" to doctors from labs or radiology offices there, as there have been here.

I think the moral deterioration in physicians who are "on the take" here, has degraded the entire profession. The insurance and pharmaceutical companies as well as companies/corporations that own many hospitals and doctors' practrices have colluded with physicians, buying their support of higher medical costs with free lunches, dinners, trips, etc. That sustained the upward trend of prices, and demeaned their profession further. They've been fighting against nurse practitioners services, in fear of losing money, often overworking to sustain their standard of living, which is quite privileged. Canadian doctors live well, have nice cars and homes, but depending on the size of their families, they certainly don't live as ostentatiously as their peers here do. They also haven't been as burdened by scholastic loans at the beginning of their practises, as education is liberally subsidised in Canada.

In Canada, physicians are paid appropriately for their time, based on their educational preparation, teaching roles, and specialties. Since most of them go to American seminars/conventions and hear what doctors have been collecting here for their service, they now are allowed to charge more, so Canadians are buying extended insurance policies from American companies to cover that. It isn't very costly now, but I fear that the insurance companies have a "toe in the door" through that; and policies sold for medical care to those who travel outside Canada. When they receive lower premiums in the US, they'll probably raise those in Canada, as might the pharmaceutical companies.

The pharmaceutical companies that didn't originate in Canada (as the Salk vaccine for polio did), must negotiate their prices in Canada, or leave. It blew my mind when I found out that the VA has had the ability to negotiate on drug prices for many years, but there has been a law in the USA prohibiting the private sector doing that!! Doctors are ill informed about the charges for medications they prescribe, which poses a huge problem for anyone who must pay for them, themselves as have Medicare patients on fixed incomes and those without insurance coverage.

The reform of health care act reversed that law, allowing all pharmaceutical products' prices to be negotiated to lessen thyat burden on government coverage as well as private insurance companies. That and controls/ close monitoring of billing for hospitals, physicians and all other medical services will lower health care costs, as will educational programs for prevention of illnesses. The latter will be genetically based and involve occupational safety hazards. There will be less witholding of information from people at risk of specific conditions. For example, breast cancer has been linked with ovarian cancer for 25+ years, yet most women haven't been told that. In Canada special "Breast and Ovarian Cancer" treatment facilities have been entitled that for at least that long. There is more active research done on those kind of illnesses in Canada, as well.

When I worked for the preservation of umbilical cord blood stem cells, the private sector took priority and les endowed patients were unable to avail themselves of that. After I hired an area coordinator in Canada, her educational program was recognized by the government there, and that process is covered by their medical programs. The saving of money through early diagnosis and autologous stem cell use greatly lowers cost of treatment there, now. Here, we're still looking for matches and holding fundraisers for bone marrow transplantation, when it has been proven for some time, that immature stem cell use (from full term births) is much better than unrelated yet matching donations of bone marrow. A tremendous number of cancers, blood dyscrasias, genetic diseases, and neurological illnesses have been successfully cured by amending stem cells to produce healthy tissue.

The much higher cost of research programs here and political meddling interfers with timely discoveries and new treatment modalities. Researchers here who are physicians, are paid commensurate with their peers' earnings in private practice. Pharmaceutical companies claim that the expense of researching new drugs is born by them, yet none have been produced without generous grants from our government and charitable organizations. That is called "double dipping", a very unethical tax claim for deductions and sympathy, when people exclaim over the high prices of treatment.

THE HEALTH CARE COSTS WILL EASILY BE PAID

The initial increased cost of health care will be covered by employers and those with extremely high incomes. While those earning $200,000 to $250,000 yearly are at the bottom of the scale of those paying 1.8% and 3.8% (lower than the 5% initially thought to be fair) added tax of the earned amounts above that line, the huge amount of earnings of the financial, insurance, pharmaceutical and many other businesses will collect heretofore unclaimed amounts of money. Loopholes in taxation will be closed and close monitoring of tax returns of the extremely wealthy will be evident, which will result in more than plenty amounts for health care, with the overages sent to cover our country's indebtedness to other countries.

As time goes on, there will certainly be greater longevity, less extensive illness, and more people able to earn longer if they choose. Genetic diseases will be treated in utero and fewer disabled people will be born, resulting in lower health care costs and more taxes collected from earners, people who might otherwise be a burden on society through disability. Hopefully the lives of premature infants saved through advancements in medical care, and less CP will find them having high quality lives through research that is done through greater funding and less expense. :clpty:

Educational costs for professional care providers would be lower when up to date texts are available online, and professors at universities continue to have private group practises. There would be more teaching physicians, at less expense if that was a requirement by hospitals at which they have admitting privileges. When those facilities are managed to save expenses by paying for less required diagnostic equipment, and don't decorate their lobbies as extensively as they do now, they will dote less on physicians' business, treating them as equal members of the health care team, rather than customers. I don't see economizing on nursing staff as a viable way to maintain quality care. When the patients come first, more staff will be needed. Now that's a recipe for successful health care!:thankya:

In a perfect world...yeah it would be great, but no our nation is no longer the nation that we used to be. now we have to pay for other's healthcare. those that choose not to work, who get paid by the government for a bogus injury (i know of a few people who get this), who spend their money on drugs, alcohol, etc... Personally I want my money that I earn, not higher income tax, and not something that will only get us into a deeper recession. Unfortuanately, our administration did get it through, but they neglected their job doing so. Say this bill is going to actually work and will benefit our country, they still ignored the people's wants. Their job is to represent the American people, and obviously they ignored the majority and did what they wanted.

Specializes in OB, HH, ADMIN, IC, ED, QI.

quoted post # 417 by bethygean:

in a perfect world...yeah it would be great, we may not be able to have that, but we certainly should make every effort to achieve thye closest possible thing to it! but no our nation is no longer the nation that we used to be. of course it isn't. change happens throughout time, hopefully for the better. years ago women were sterilized without their knowledge or permission, if their doctor thought they'd had too many children now we have to pay for other's healthcare. we always have done that - at astonishingly high costs, due to the progression of disease unchecked, when those who cannot afford health care let their disease go untreated those that choose not to work, when people are sick, they cannot work, may spread a contagious disease if they have one, and may need psychiatric care, which is the situation most "homeless" people face who get paid by the government for a bogus injury (i know of a few people who get this), if you checked statistics at osha's website, you'd find out that the majority of claims for injuries sustained at work, are due to actual unsafe conditions in the workplace who spend their money on drugs, alcohol, etc... not all those on the downside of life abuse drugs personally i want my money that i earn, not higher income tax, unless you make more that $200,000, you will pay as you do now, for health care coverage and not something that will only get us into a deeper recession. the recession wasn't caused by higher taxes unfortunately, our administration did get it through, but they neglected their job doing so. those who are responsible for passing the health care act did so with great barvery, in the face of rabid wealthy individuals who didn't want it, hired lobbyists to oppose it, and don't respect truth. say this bill is going to actually work and will benefit our country, which it will they still ignored the people's wants. maybe those you know, not the majority - depending upon myths that are believed by uninformed folks in certain geographical locations and the fact that "there are none so blind, as those who will not see".their job is to represent the american people, and obviously they ignored the majority and did what they wanted. that is the biggest myth, perpetrated by the minority who opposed the results of the 2008 election. i've never heard or seen such a bunch of sore losers in my life. get over it!!!!

Specializes in ED, ICU, Education.

I miss Canada for the healthcare. I work hard in the US (they recruited me) and find that even with insurance I still have multiple bills to pay for physician visits (annual exams). And for some reason, now that I'm 30, my body has decided to go haywire and give me cancer and chipped teeth. To make matters worse, I am moving across the country so my insurance will lapse and I will be forced to pay "pre-existing" condition bills. I may as well move back to Canada. It's frustrating for me because I do work, I do pay for insurance, but when I really need the care, I can't afford it. Even COBRA is almost $400/month simply because I have a "pre-existing condition." In Canada, I may have to wait a while for chemotherapy, but not usually longer than 4 weeks (which is the time it takes for pathology etc. to come back). I'd say the wait is worth it, especially since it won't make you go hungry and homeless.

QUOTED FROM JSTAND “I love it when people start to assume what the framers of the constitution mean and put their own spin on it. The truth is that YOU, nor Rebelyell, nor I know exactly what the framers meant when they said "general welfare".

We can know exactly, with great detail and certainty what our founding fathers thought of the "General Welfare" clause. Please read below. Keep in mind these are just a few quotes and if you need me to provide more, please let me know.

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"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."

- Thomas Jefferson

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“With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.”

- James Madison

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“The nature of the encroachment upon American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer; it eats faster and faster every hour. The revenue creates pensioners, and the pensioners urge for more revenue. The people grow less steady, spirited and virtuous, the seekers more numerous and more corrupt, and every day increases the circles of their dependents and expectants, until virtue, integrity, public spirit, simplicity and frugality become the objects of ridicule and scorn, and vanity, luxury, foppery, selfishness, meanness, and downright venality swallow up the whole of society.”

- John Adams

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“If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare... they may appoint teachers in every state... The powers of Congress would subvert the very foundation, the very nature of the limited government established by the people of America.”

- James Madison

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“The constitutionality and propriety of the Federal Government assuming to enter into a novel and vast field of legislation, namely, that of providing for the care and support of all those … who by any form of calamity become fit objects of public philanthropy. ... I cannot find any authority in the Constitution for making the Federal Government the great almoner of public charity throughout the United States. To do so would, in my judgment, be contrary to the letter and spirit of the Constitution and subversive of the whole theory upon which the Union of these States is founded.”

- Franklin Peirce

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“I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.”

- James Madison

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“If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress... Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America.”

- James Madison

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"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

- Thomas Jefferson

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“To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father's has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association -- the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.”

- Thomas Jefferson

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I cannot find any authority in the Constitution for public charity, ... [it] would be contrary to the letter and the spirit of the Constitution and subversive to the whole theory upon which the Union of these States is founded.”

- Franklin Peirce

As a Canadian nurse who has practiced through more than one major restructuring , I actually once had to chose between a job in Florida and a one in the far north. Because I am a diehard fan of the socialized medicine I chose the north inspite of an allergy to cold. I truly believe healthcare is basic human right. That

said I also believe it can only work when the majority values such a system. It is true the Canadian system is not perfect. To most Canadians it is still better than the American system. It is because we fear a return to the time when an illness could reduce you to poverty that we are willing to fund a universal system of care. It has become apart of our national identity. That makes it worth saving for us. But it has to be a priority or it becomes something that is not worth having.

People in the United States are not necessarily living in poverty because of an illness. A vast majority of people living in poverty have gotten themselves into that situation through a chosen lifestyle of drugs, gangs, or other illegal activities. Not all, but most can change whether or not they live in this environment. There is a difference between being poor and living in poverty. If the United States carries through with this health care reform then people will lose the value of hard work and become idle.