Should patients be allowed to refuse LPNs and CNAs?

Nurses LPN/LVN

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Last night on our med/surg unit, we had an elderly woman who was in wiht consitpation. Very stable patient, vitals within normal limits, fairly negative past medical history, no home meds, independent with ADLs...again, a very stable patient. No BM for 8 days...came in to ER via private vehicle with complaints of abdominal pain.

We are a small rural hospital, average patient census of 10. Last night we had nine patients. This woman decided that she did not want any LPNs or CNAs in her room. OK...we try to accomodate such requests, but on nights like this, we have one RN on med/surg and one in ER. ER was pretty busy, so the ER nurse did not have time to come to the floor to help. Other than the charge RN, we had two LPNs and one CNA...staffing well above what we normally have. Certainly, the RN had time to care for this patient, but this woman didn't even want the CNA or one of the LPNs to do the simple things like taking her vital signs, refilling her water pitcher, or emptying her commode. So...the RN not only was charge over 9 patients, but had to do all cares for this patient, simply because she did not want anyone but an RN.

I agree 100% that there should be an RN available for all patients, but not all patients require an RN as their primary nurse. In a small rural area like this one, sometimes you have to take an LPN, especially if you are stable and have a predictable outcome. Had we been busier or had an unstable patient, would we have been out of line to explain to this patient that there was an RN available if anything unexpected happened, but that due to staffing reasons, her assigned nurse would be an LPN? This happens every now and then and usually we are able to accomodate the requests of RNs only, but what about when we just can't do it?

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
I agree. I have nothing against attempting to accommodate patient's feelings and requests. The problem comes when a patient thinks they can demand a higher level of care than they need (such as monopolizing the only RN's time) thus denying other patients their right to receive competent care.

BINGO!!! This one gets the PRIZE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was just answering the original question which was "Should patients be allowed to refuse LPN's and CNA's. Of course, if a patient prefers a female or male at the LTC we try to do the best we can to honor their requests. When I am old and sick and in the LTC I am going to request a handsome young man to care for me. RN,LPN,CNA doesn't matter to me. However, I am certainly not going to "sue" if they don't honor my wishes. :chuckle

Offer them the names of local staffing agencies which can provide private-duty RN's or tell them to get their butts out and go to the nearest big hospital .

See this is my point, tell them I am sorry, but we just can't meet your request. But we would be happy to refere you to a couple of agencies if you feel You need for a personal care RN.

I would also say the RN is busy at this time and can I please be allowed to help you.Empty your Bedpan Or I would be happy to take a messsage to her/ him.

Regarging males doing my care When I was in the hospitial in major pain .My best nurse there ,just happened to be a male When you haven't had a shower for 3 or 4 days and have no use of your arms or hands .Heck you are thankful for care from anyone .My male nurse asked me if I was Ok with him doing care. I said I was .If he was Ok with it. After seeing a billion bodies, doing care .There are pretty much the same ,just some a little older some a little younger Male and Female. Don't you think we just look with our clinical eyes. When doing care.

Male/female is an entirely different issue. Frankly, I don't think men can understand this, nurses or not. The unfortunate truth is that most rape and sexual abuse is perpetrated by men. Women are constantly aware of this and guarding against it. An amazingly high percentage of women have experienced some type of sexual victimization. Male nurses are unlike to be the perpetrators, but being helpless in the hands of a male nurse can be very frightening for a woman. Women of a certain age, especially, were raised with such modesty that being viewed by a man is akin to assault. People feel very vulnerable in the hospital, and such a personal preference should be accomodated if possible.

In addition, this is a situation that COULD cause a lawsuit. What if a male nurse insists on bathing a female patient who has requested a woman, and the male nurse doesn't know that this woman has a personal history of sexual abuse? His touching her could be construed as causing her acute emotional distress and exacerbation of PTSD. The patient might win that case, or at least assist the hospital and nurse in running up some big legal bills.

Unlike the all-RN request, this one has nothing to do with the nurse's competence. It has to do with very personal preference and comfort.

My first thought was the individual in question had seen too many of those posters saying ask for an RN for quality care! Maybe she fully bought into the J&J ads going on about RN's being the best equipped to handle patients. Maybe you could send her bill straight to J&J?:angryfire :rotfl:

As far as an LPN not having nearly as much training as an RN, when it comes to bedside care, that is hogwash. LPN's go through intensive training in this arena, as this is their primary job. Many RN's will tell you that without LPN's to help them when they were GN's, they would have been in deep doo-doo.

Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.
I asked before, and I will ask again, please tell me where this gross negligence is???

Please do not put words in my mouth now. You appear to be mis-representing my position.

I never said there was negligence.

I also said that she might not have a legitmate suit and that she might not have any chance of winning one. However, even if a case is thrown out of court, there can be a lot of time and expense and pain in preparing for the hearing and mounting the defence. I personally know of a case that dragged on for 3 years, being dismissed from court twice before it finally went to a jury -- who took less than 1 hour to agree completely with the hospital. It was 3 years of stress for all involved and hundreds of thousands of dollars for the defense -- for a "ridiculous" case. That type of experience is worth avoiding if at all possible.

I have learned through experience it is often better to attempt a diplomatic solution (including a little compromise) to such situations than to stand on principles, refuse to compromise, and endure a lot of suffering.

In a previous post, I supported the ideas to help her arrange for private duty RN's and/or transfer to another facility. And certainly, if patient safety were of immediate concern, I would not endanger another patient. No one is suggesting that another patient be allowed to bleed to death while this 1 woman is being placated.

llg

As a nurse, I agree. I, myself, have seen more male body parts than I care to remember. And they ALL look the same.

However, as patient, I don't feel that way.

For personal intimate care, I would want a female nurse.

That's odd, why is it OK for you to provide care to male pts but not OK for a male nurse to provide care to you?!

Do you have some hidden negative thoughts about men in the field?

There is simply no difference between male and female nurses. We are all nurses and we all provide the same care. If nurses themselves don't believe this, how can we help the public to see it as well?

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
That's odd, why is it OK for you to provide care to male pts but not OK for a male nurse to provide care to you?!

Do you have some hidden negative thoughts about men in the field?

There is simply no difference between male and female nurses. We are all nurses and we all provide the same care. If nurses themselves don't believe this, how can we help the public to see it as well?

thank you. Can't anyone see the hypocrisy here? I think in the case of prior sexual abuse, I can see the point, but otherwise, why discriminate? Females who accept male doctors should have NO problem accepting the care of male nurses.

Specializes in 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER.

Prior cases of sexual abuse, i could see why a pt. would request a certain gender for care. Do not bother flaming me for this one, because i've done this before, and to be quite graphic, when you're 12 years old and have just gone through absolute sexual hell at the hands of someone of the oppposite sex, the last thing you want is to have someone tell you that you're just going to have to "deal" with who they have on staff when you ask to not have a nurse of a certain gender to examine you.

And things are different when you're a nurse and from when you're a pt. Vulnerability is why. Some handle it better than others.

To answer the OPs question, i think it's way wrong on how the pt. refuses, but, yep, they have rights, though. Whether it's wrong or right isn't even in question because of the good ol' bull**** customer service.

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