Should patients be allowed to refuse LPNs and CNAs?

Nurses LPN/LVN

Published

Last night on our med/surg unit, we had an elderly woman who was in wiht consitpation. Very stable patient, vitals within normal limits, fairly negative past medical history, no home meds, independent with ADLs...again, a very stable patient. No BM for 8 days...came in to ER via private vehicle with complaints of abdominal pain.

We are a small rural hospital, average patient census of 10. Last night we had nine patients. This woman decided that she did not want any LPNs or CNAs in her room. OK...we try to accomodate such requests, but on nights like this, we have one RN on med/surg and one in ER. ER was pretty busy, so the ER nurse did not have time to come to the floor to help. Other than the charge RN, we had two LPNs and one CNA...staffing well above what we normally have. Certainly, the RN had time to care for this patient, but this woman didn't even want the CNA or one of the LPNs to do the simple things like taking her vital signs, refilling her water pitcher, or emptying her commode. So...the RN not only was charge over 9 patients, but had to do all cares for this patient, simply because she did not want anyone but an RN.

I agree 100% that there should be an RN available for all patients, but not all patients require an RN as their primary nurse. In a small rural area like this one, sometimes you have to take an LPN, especially if you are stable and have a predictable outcome. Had we been busier or had an unstable patient, would we have been out of line to explain to this patient that there was an RN available if anything unexpected happened, but that due to staffing reasons, her assigned nurse would be an LPN? This happens every now and then and usually we are able to accomodate the requests of RNs only, but what about when we just can't do it?

This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. In my opinion, I believe her request should've been honored to the highest extent possible, but the line should have been drawn at filling her water jug, emptying her toilet, and anything else that wasn't exactly "medical" in nature.

I also think there are many seasoned LPNs who are better nurses than some RNs will ever be. Most nursing care is not learned in a classroom, but rather, on the job. If I were the LPN in this instance, I would've been highly upset! :angryfire

A couple of weeks ago at clinicals, there was a patient who refused to let me take his blood sugar. He stated that he wanted "a real nurse, and not a trainee." :uhoh3: I just politely told him that that was fine, but it really ticked me off that he thought I was incapable of something as simple as a blood sugar stick. And that's nowhere near as bad as this ignorant lady.

I am not seeing what grounds she would have to file a lawsuit. There are 4 specific criteria that must be met for negligence/malpractice (what else would she claim, "I didn't get my way?".

1 - Duty

2 - Breach of duty

3 - Injury (not inconvenience)

4 - Fault

I do not see that she would suffer injury by having a CNA empty her commode rather than an RN. She could bring injury to herself by demanding an RN, but having to wait because of the RN's workload, and doing something without assistance. Worse still, she could cause injury to someone else by taking the RN away from someone who NEEDS an RN just so she won't have to put up with a CNA filling her ice pitcher. In that case, the RN really would be liable. The demanding lady would have no culpability.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think for a minute that someone like this would NOT sue over something stupid, but the lawsuit does have to meet the requirements of the law.

Specializes in Public Health, DEI.
Are you willing to pay for the years of litigation that might result from the lawsuits she files if her request is not honored? It's not always about what is right or wrong ... fair or unfair. Sometimes you simply have to protect yourself (and your family) by tolerating something you disapprove of.

While such a patient would make me very angry, I wouldn't want to jeopardize my financial future just to prove a point to her. She isn't worth it. My life and well-being are more important to me than some idiot's biases.

llg

How does providing competent care to a patient by people who are trained and paid to perform that care comprise any sort of negligence or malpractice? Patients are not guaranteed any particular person to provide their care (unless they've contracted otherwise), just that the care be provided by competent personnel. If the insurer chooses to settle such a lawsuit, that is their business, but there is absolutely no personal culpability here.

Specializes in Oncology/Haemetology/HIV.
The patient should be made aware that she doesn't make the patient assignment, the RN does and she will have to work with whoever she gets.

The RN is more capable to know what is the best assignment for each staff member.

Case Closed

The patient should also be told that if she still requires this care, that since she is stable she can be transferred to another facility of her choice. And that SSW will be happy to arrange.

But I'll lay odds that she would manipulate the system by "Falling" or having "chest pain" that would require the RN work with her.

Specializes in er/icu/neuro/trauma/pacu.

here's an even sweeter way to handle a patient who has requested a specific caregiver or refused care by certain levels/races/genders:

When call light goes off, the offending caregiver responds quickly and states "your nurse is unavailable, is there something I can help you with or do you prefer to wait?"

Of course you want to stand outside the door and just smile as the patient or family fumes, after all you are not worthy of helping them---lol

That's baloney. I would have left the commode umemptied until it got ripe and she gave in and let an aide empty it! Okay, maybe I wouldn't have done that, but I'd want to.

If she wants to request an RN to give her meds or start an IV - okay, I can live with that, although the LPN is perfectly capable. But for the other stuff I'd chart "pt refuses vital signs" and leave. She's lucky she has anyone to wipe her butt, with staffing how it is in this country.

I have to agree with your thoughts here, unfortunatly, she has the right to have the nurse of her choice if at all possible. Often times the RN can go in and explain just what LPNs and CNAs are and that resolves the issue. There are people, and unfortunately nursing has itself caused these problems, who believe LPNs are not really nurses. Sometimes they just need to be informed that this is not true!

Specializes in Medical.
here's an even sweeter way to handle a patient who has requested a specific caregiver or refused care by certain levels/races/genders:

When call light goes off, the offending caregiver responds quickly and states "your nurse is unavailable, is there something I can help you with or do you prefer to wait?"

Of course you want to stand outside the door and just smile as the patient or family fumes, after all you are not worthy of helping them---lol

That's excellent advice - I'm going to start implementing it tonight!

"unless there is some kind of personality conflict between patient and caregiver, or if a female patient prefers a female caregiver as opposed to a male,"

(puts on asbestos suit and climbs on soapbox)

i'm sorry but this attitude should be done away with. if male patients insisted on only male nurses they would most often be out of luck. i don't see any reason that women should be catered to in this fashion. if i ever need a foley placed in me or to have my backside wiped, then i will be thrilled to have a careing competent nurse whether it is a male or female. i put up with this crap and yes it is crap when i did my ob rotation. every woman was asked if it was ok for a male student to come in the room. i have never heard of men being asked if it was ok for a female nurses to care for them. if people want to pick and choose their caregivers then they should arange and pay for it themselves.

(climbs down from soapbox but leaves asbestos suit on)

I would have had the supervisor, if there was one, come in and discuss the staffing issue with the patient, who should have been made aware that non medical chores and tasks would certainly be handled by everyone including the RN, LPN and Cna due, not only to staffing, but because it was appropriate. Suppose she had insisted that no nurse or no woman could care for her. Even these days when hospitals bend over backwards to accomodate patients to the point of ridiculosness, there is a line. This is limit setting one oh one in nursing school, at least when I went there....If you sign the admission sheet and are of sound mind and body, then you acknowledge the policies of the hospital. Yes, a patient has rights, but this situation does not encompass them. You were right and anyone who would allow this to occur with her or anyone else, is just plain wrong. Imagine if she "allowed" Rns to care for her, but only if they were thin or fat...Suppose both RNS were men and she refused their care. Suppose all the peronnel involved were either all male or all female and she preferred the other gender. I can imagine in a court of law where something untoward happened against another patient because of this preference, they really wouldn't care if another patient was compromised due to the hospitals compliance with this bizarre request from another patient, who was either sadly or badly misinformed, or arogant as heck to even assume that she SHOULD be accomodated...If all else failed, I would give her the option of leaving against medical advice, or transferring to another facility with someone from her family to hopefully drive her. If not, and family members or friends were available, I would mention in order to accomodate tasks not directly connected to the RN, one of them stay and care for her. I have done that in the past for patients who refuse to see the foolishness of their requests.

Specializes in Utilization Management.
Originally Posted by ddd

Are you willing to pay for the years of litigation that might result from the lawsuits she files if her request is not honored? It's not always about what is right or wrong ... fair or unfair. Sometimes you simply have to protect yourself (and your family) by tolerating something you disapprove of.

While such a patient would make me very angry, I wouldn't want to jeopardize my financial future just to prove a point to her. She isn't worth it. My life and well-being are more important to me than some idiot's biases.

It just really irks me that this type of patient makes life so difficult for the staff that all of the unit's resources are directed away from the genuinely ill patients who could die while waiting for care.

Then who'd sue? Some LOL that should've been turfed off that unit days ago, or the family of the patient who was too sick to complain about his neglectful treatment?

I think we are well within the rights of ALL the patients to refuse to be a party to this sham.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

I still dont' see HOW she can sue? NO breach of duty or negligence would occur in a case where she received care from an LPN and/or aide, as long as an RN is supervising and responsible for overall assessment. She is pulling a fast one here, and it would be up to that RN (and her manager/supervisor) to re-orient this lady to "reality". Apparently she gets away with this frequently, and that is wrong. So I stand in the corner with Brickman. The patient is NOT simply a customer and therefore "always right".

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