Should patients be allowed to refuse LPNs and CNAs?

Nurses LPN/LVN

Published

Last night on our med/surg unit, we had an elderly woman who was in wiht consitpation. Very stable patient, vitals within normal limits, fairly negative past medical history, no home meds, independent with ADLs...again, a very stable patient. No BM for 8 days...came in to ER via private vehicle with complaints of abdominal pain.

We are a small rural hospital, average patient census of 10. Last night we had nine patients. This woman decided that she did not want any LPNs or CNAs in her room. OK...we try to accomodate such requests, but on nights like this, we have one RN on med/surg and one in ER. ER was pretty busy, so the ER nurse did not have time to come to the floor to help. Other than the charge RN, we had two LPNs and one CNA...staffing well above what we normally have. Certainly, the RN had time to care for this patient, but this woman didn't even want the CNA or one of the LPNs to do the simple things like taking her vital signs, refilling her water pitcher, or emptying her commode. So...the RN not only was charge over 9 patients, but had to do all cares for this patient, simply because she did not want anyone but an RN.

I agree 100% that there should be an RN available for all patients, but not all patients require an RN as their primary nurse. In a small rural area like this one, sometimes you have to take an LPN, especially if you are stable and have a predictable outcome. Had we been busier or had an unstable patient, would we have been out of line to explain to this patient that there was an RN available if anything unexpected happened, but that due to staffing reasons, her assigned nurse would be an LPN? This happens every now and then and usually we are able to accomodate the requests of RNs only, but what about when we just can't do it?

Specializes in Public Health, DEI.
Please do not put words in my mouth now. You appear to be mis-representing my position.

I never said there was negligence.

I also said that she might not have a legitmate suit and that she might not have any chance of winning one. However, even if a case is thrown out of court, there can be a lot of time and expense and pain in preparing for the hearing and mounting the defence. I personally know of a case that dragged on for 3 years, being dismissed from court twice before it finally went to a jury -- who took less than 1 hour to agree completely with the hospital. It was 3 years of stress for all involved and hundreds of thousands of dollars for the defense -- for a "ridiculous" case. That type of experience is worth avoiding if at all possible.

I have learned through experience it is often better to attempt a diplomatic solution (including a little compromise) to such situations than to stand on principles, refuse to compromise, and endure a lot of suffering.

In a previous post, I supported the ideas to help her arrange for private duty RN's and/or transfer to another facility. And certainly, if patient safety were of immediate concern, I would not endanger another patient. No one is suggesting that another patient be allowed to bleed to death while this 1 woman is being placated.

llg

I didn't put words into your mouth. I asked you a specific question in hopes of helping me to understand on what you are basing your viewpoint that this woman should be indulged at the expense of other patients. You say that you didn't suggest that anyone be allowed to bleed to death, but you still haven't explained how it would be possible for an RN to both attend to those patients who need her and patients such as the one described by the OP. She is the only RN on a med-surg unit. Its been a long time, but I remember very well the demands on my time in my med surg days. As nurses, we can't allow the possibility of being sued to dictate our professional practice. We are trained to triage the needs of our patients and delegate those tasks that safely can be handed off to others, so that we have the time to perform those tasks that call for our training and qualifications. Isn't that the whole point of ? So that we can practice responsible nursing without the fear of losing everything we have? If I honestly believed that this woman could be indulged without negatively impacting other patients, my answer might be different, but that just isn't the way it is on any med surg unit I've ever seen. It sure doesn't sound like that's the way it was at the OP's unit either.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Prior cases of sexual abuse, i could see why a pt. would request a certain gender for care. Do not bother flaming me for this one, because i've done this before, and to be quite graphic, when you're 12 years old and have just gone through absolute sexual hell at the hands of someone of the oppposite sex, the last thing you want is to have someone tell you that you're just going to have to "deal" with who they have on staff when you ask to not have a nurse of a certain gender to examine you.

And things are different when you're a nurse and from when you're a pt. Vulnerability is why. Some handle it better than others.

To answer the OPs question, i think it's way wrong on how the pt. refuses, but, yep, they have rights, though. Whether it's wrong or right isn't even in question because of the good ol' bull**** customer service.

Marie, the case of prior sexual abuse was addressed already. But that is a relatively small population. The rest should NOT discriminate. I see nurses who do more harm than good for our male colleagues. They SOMETIMES set them up for this.....

For example on an OB unit I used to work in, the nurse leaving would tell her patient "you next nurse is a male, are you ok with that?" Often, the patient would say "no". Ok, now she had to reassign a female nurse to the case w/o finding out WHY there is a problem?

She should set it up differently, if you ask me. She could say, " I am leaving now, and introducing you to your next nurse, who will be Dave, RN. You will be in good hands in his care". Men are in nursing; it's time to embrace this. Men have been doctors for centuries and most women accept this, except in sexual abuse and certain cultural cases. Other than that, yes they should "deal". And we should be HELPING our male colleagues, not hurting them.

Specializes in LTC,Hospice/palliative care,acute care.
To answer the OPs question, i think it's way wrong on how the pt. refuses, but, yep, they have rights, though. Whether it's wrong or right isn't even in question because of the good ol' bull**** customer service.
You said it,Marie.....how right you are......It seems that it is fine for nurses to be discriminated against by their patients on the basis of sex,sexual orientation,race,religion in the name of customer satisfaction and these dmenafds are met.......I guess I am a hypocrite because I am not offended by patients stating they are uncomfortable with caregivers of the opposite sex...Little Old ladies often refuse male nursing staff and they have the right to do so...However if no-one else is available they also have the right to wipe their own behinds,call in their loved ones to do it for them or pay for a private duty nurse that is to their liking...I really think that in a case such as this every effort should have been made to explain staffing concerns to this person-in the presence of her family....They could have hired a private duty for her or encouraged her to accept the care she required from whomever is available to deliver it.And given her previous level of independence don't forget that "We don't want to compromise your ability to care for yourself upon discharge" Park a commode beside that bed-move the iv stand to one side and tape that IV site really really well and get a strap for the foley and lay the bag in a clean wash basin so she can push it around with her foot....Or call the doc and get IV fluids and foley dc'd if not contraindicated-was she taking PO?Why the foley? Acute care is notorious for putting a foley into anyone over 65 or so...I can't wait to hear how the rest of her vacation (I mean hospitalization) went....
Specializes in Med/Surg, Geriatrics.
Marie, the case of prior sexual abuse was addressed already. But that is a relatively small population. The rest should NOT discriminate. I see nurses who do more harm than good for our male colleagues. They SOMETIMES set them up for this.....

For example on an OB unit I used to work in, the nurse leaving would tell her patient "you next nurse is a male, are you ok with that?" Often, the patient would say "no". Ok, now she had to reassign a female nurse to the case w/o finding out WHY there is a problem?

She should set it up differently, if you ask me. She could say, " I am leaving now, and introducing you to your next nurse, who will be Dave, RN. You will be in good hands in his care". Men are in nursing; it's time to embrace this. Men have been doctors for centuries and most women accept this, except in sexual abuse and certain cultural cases. Other than that, yes they should "deal". And we should be HELPING our male colleagues, not hurting them.

Precisely Deb. It really used to bug me when patients would start getting all jittery because they were having a male nurse but thought nothing of having a male physician. The last floor I worked on, we had at least 7 or 8 guys on staff and there were evenings when most of the staff was male. If somebody didn't want a male nurse, they were SOL. It's a silly double standard and we as nurses should be helping our fellow nurses not validating prejudices or perpetuating them.

I have only had male physicians in cases like removing keloids from my earlobes. I'm not a hypocrite; if possible I don't want a man poking at me. Sorry. I go to female masseuses too. If I'm admitted emergently to the hospital, my attending may be the MAN on call that night. I'm okay with that, unless it's a gyn thing. But when I have a choice I see women.

Nursing is different from medicine. OB is one scenario, but what about the LOL in for pneumonia? She may be fine with a male physician listening to her lungs, but she doesn't want a male nurse washing her peri area. It's NOT the same thing.

I don't think it's reasonable for a patient to insist on a nurse of a specific gender EXCEPT for intimate tasks (except in cases of sexual abuse, trauma etc). You don't get a choice of who gives you your pills, starts your IV or helps you brush your teeth. Bed bath and foley, okay, you can have someone you are comfortable with if staffing permits.

we have a fre. flyer on the floor who comes in and wants only female care. we provide her that, which is not hard b/c we almost always have three or four females for every male.

when males ask for other males to care for them, we try to keep a note of this on their file so that a male nurse can be assigned to them if at all possible when patient assignments are made out. If not possible, a male aide for the more personal aspects of hygiene (which is usually the root issue). If that is not possible, we explain that only females are available and if they are uncomfortable they can have a wife/family member (son, etc) help them. Most often, the pts realize we have exhausted all of the options and agree to be cared for by who is available- who makes sure to give the pt. as much dignity and privacy as possible.

I have gone into patients room to answer lights or calls for help and been rebuffed for not being the particular nurse that they want, and unless it is am emergency, I say ohk, I will see if that person is available, but if they are busy it may be a little bit before they can get in. If the person they are asking for is unable to come in and assist, I will return and say so-and-so is very involved in a pt. room at this time, are you sure thatI cannot help you? and if they are with it and wish to wait, document it to CYA and let them.

male/female is a whole different ballgame than RN vs LPN vs CNA.

If there was a pt acting up about not having anyone besides the RN coming in their room, the charge nurse, patient care supervisor, or Nursing Director for the floor would be called in there to explain scopes of practice and the way it works in our hospital (team nursing). we had a similar issue on our floor today : / very frustrating and time consuming for all involved. Not like the days are not busy enough already : )

No I do NOT have any "hidden negative thoughts about men in the field."

That was uncalled for.

Please don't make personal attacks and accusations.

Keep the conversation on the subject, please.

I already stated, that as a patient, I would want a female nurse for very intimate examinations, or care, and I stand by what I said. That's a patient's RIGHT to have her preferred gender of a nurse, for those kind of treatments/care.

There is a difference, when you're the patient.

Why would you want to force a patient to go thru something that would obviously cause her distress and embarrasement???

If a male patient REQUESTED that I not do any personal intimate treatments or care on him, I would have NO problem to turn that part of his care over to a male nurse, and I never indicated that I wouldn't do so.

I am very sorry you took that question as an attack on you personally. It was a simple question. A question intented to help me understand why you think we, as nurses, should not help pts understand that gender makes no difference in personal care.

You are talking about a nurse caring for a pt, not a man caring for a potential sexual mate. There is the difference and I fear too many female nurses here are not seeing that difference! That worries me, it really worries me that so many people are seeing nurses as sexual beings instead of simply professionals.

Again, I am sorry you took that question as a personal attack, I truly didn't mean to attack you.

Marie, the case of prior sexual abuse was addressed already. But that is a relatively small population. The rest should NOT discriminate. I see nurses who do more harm than good for our male colleagues. They SOMETIMES set them up for this.....

For example on an OB unit I used to work in, the nurse leaving would tell her patient "you next nurse is a male, are you ok with that?" Often, the patient would say "no". Ok, now she had to reassign a female nurse to the case w/o finding out WHY there is a problem?

She should set it up differently, if you ask me. She could say, " I am leaving now, and introducing you to your next nurse, who will be Dave, RN. You will be in good hands in his care". Men are in nursing; it's time to embrace this. Men have been doctors for centuries and most women accept this, except in sexual abuse and certain cultural cases. Other than that, yes they should "deal". And we should be HELPING our male colleagues, not hurting them.

The only problem that I have with what you are saying is this:

If a female pt is 65 years old or older she was born in or before 1940. Most women born '40 or before never had sex with a man before they were married, and when it was time to go to bed with their husbands, they went to the bathroom undressed and put on a nignt gown that went from their neck down to their feet, keept their panties on, turned out the light in the bathroom, walked into a dark bedroom, jumped into bed with their husband, pulled the covers up to their neck and went to sleep. In the morning they grabbed a big robe and covered themselves up as fast as they could. Hubby hardly even saw them in their nighties, or undies, let alone naked. The only other man most of these women have ever exposed themselves to was their doctor, and it was a miserable experience for them, but it was ok, because it was their doctor.

I was born in 46 and am in with the wild baby boomers ...but when I first was married I did the same thing, except the nighties were a little sexier and around 30 I stopped the panty thing at bedtime. I have been married 3 times and for most of the past 39 years. With each new hubby, I had the same modesty issues, and it took some time to loosen up. Don't think hubby #1 ever saw me completely nude, hubby #2 and I were probably married three or four years before I was ever comfortable walking around nude in front of. With hubbie # 3, I still have some embarrassment about because now my body isn't the most gorgeous thing to be parading in front of someone. I had the same doctor (OBGYN) for 20 years and always felt wierd going in for my pap tests, and he delivered both of my kids (for heavens sakes!).

Had to go in to the hospital a few yrs ago and had a male CNA of a different race than mine, and a male nurse. They were very nice, highly professional people. I had to have bed baths, and when I could do regular baths I had to have assistance because I was on an IV. Being of a different race didn't bother me. Being of a different gender did! :imbar I didn't let these two guys know how very wierd it was for me ... I gritted my teeth, didn't want to seem like a square or spoil sport, but I was just mortified whenever I had to be exposed in front of them... bed pans, baths, etc. :uhoh3: I silently "freaked" every time. Many women are a little that way, even in front of other women. Even younger women.

I am now a CNA, doing my clinicals in a LTC, and am highly sensitive to how some of the older men seem embarrassed having me provide personal care for them.

I don't think it is that guys are not accepted as nurses. I think it is an issue with modesty and self-consciousness, not about getting competent care.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
The only problem that I have with what you are saying is this:

If a female pt is 65 years old or older she was born in or before 1940. Most women born '40 or before never had sex with a man before they were married, and when it was time to go to bed with their husbands, they went to the bathroom undressed and put on a nignt gown that went from their neck down to their feet, keept their panties on, turned out the light in the bathroom, walked into a dark bedroom, jumped into bed with their husband, pulled the covers up to their neck and went to sleep. In the morning they grabbed a big robe and covered themselves up as fast as they could. Hubby hardly even saw them in their nighties, or undies, let alone naked. The only other man most of these women have ever exposed themselves to was their doctor, and it was a miserable experience for them, but it was ok, because it was their doctor.

I was born in 46 and am in with the wild baby boomers ...but when I first was married I did the same thing, except the nighties were a little sexier and around 30 I stopped the panty thing at bedtime. I have been married 3 times and for most of the past 39 years. With each new hubby, I had the same modesty issues, and it took some time to loosen up. Don't think hubby #1 ever saw me completely nude, hubby #2 and I were probably married three or four years before I was ever comfortable walking around nude in front of. With hubbie # 3, I still have some embarrassment about because now my body isn't the most gorgeous thing to be parading in front of someone. I had the same doctor (OBGYN) for 20 years and always felt wierd going in for my pap tests, and he delivered both of my kids (for heavens sakes!).

Had to go in to the hospital a few yrs ago and had a male CNA of a different race than mine, and a male nurse. They were very nice, highly professional people. I had to have bed baths, and when I could do regular baths I had to have assistance because I was on an IV. Being of a different race didn't bother me. Being of a different gender did! :imbar I didn't let these two guys know how very wierd it was for me ... I gritted my teeth, didn't want to seem like a square or spoil sport, but I was just mortified whenever I had to be exposed in front of them... bed pans, baths, etc. :uhoh3: I silently "freaked" every time. Many women are a little that way, even in front of other women. Even younger women.

I am now a CNA, doing my clinicals in a LTC, and am highly sensitive to how some of the older men seem embarrassed having me provide personal care for them.

I don't think it is that guys are not accepted as nurses. I think it is an issue with modesty and self-consciousness, not about getting competent care.

ANd most doctors before 1946 were MALE, yet woman accepted it. They did ALL "intimate" care for them, too....delivering their babies, GYN care etc. How is it they can accept the doctors being male, yet not nurses? I still don't get this!!!!!
Specializes in Med/Surg, Geriatrics.
ANd most doctors before 1946 were MALE, yet woman accepted it. They did ALL "intimate" care for them, too....delivering their babies, GYN care etc. How is it they can accept the doctors being male, yet not nurses? I still don't get this!!!!!

I don't buy it either Deb. MOST people understand, regardless of cultural or generational mores that they will be losing some privacy and that people of opposite genders may provide intimate care. MOST people get that.

I think people choose which bits of the past they want to take with them. I see elderly people using cell phones, computers, driving cars, and using credit cards. They lived through WWII, the Depression, the Civil Rights Era and the Vietnam war. They have adapted amazingly well to those changes in society but having a male nurse is just too strange? Naaaaa......

We may have to accomodate their requests but we do not have to normalize it by as you stated setting the male nurses with questions like "Are you okay with that?"

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

I mean, what will these women EVER DO IN THE OR where maybe 5 or 6 opposite-gender people will definately see them "exposed" and under anesthesia, yet? Or in an ambulance, where most paramedics are MALE? or the ED in a true emergency?

Nope, don't buy that preference thing, unless, like I said in extreme or unusual circumstances such as prior sexual abuse history or established cultural mores.

+ Add a Comment