Should nurses have MSNs

UM Review RN, ASN, RN · Mar 8, 2005

School me!

Nurses are not PTs or SWs, that's why.

I'm not talking about ADN vs BSN.

Actually, you are. Though you've changed the terminology, the question is the same--

what should be the minimum education level for the nurse? The answer is that the market won't support an MSN--too expensive, too time-consuming, and basically unnecessary for the bedside nurse, which is where the shortages are.

The Veridican · Mar 8, 2005

Nurses are not PTs or SWs, that's why.
Actually, you are. Though you've changed the terminology, the question is the same--
what should be the minimum education level for the nurse? The answer is that the market won't support an MSN--too expensive, too time-consuming, and basically unnecessary for the bedside nurse, which is where the shortages are.

Then that's it. That's what I've always thought. It's supply and demand. As soon as there is no nursing shortage (give us one bad recession) the minimum education level will begin to rise for nurses. The job itself requires an incredible amount of knowledge in order to be done right and efficiently. The responsibility is staggering. It needs a strong academic foundation, or does it?

Apparently, it does not. My point is that neither does PT or SW, it's just that there is less demand for them and more people willing to do that work.

If there was a massive plague or a war (God forbid) all current RNs would become instant NPs without the need for collaboration and all LPNs would become RNs and all aids would become LPNs. I recently learned that during the Korean war, many surgeons were sent over to be surgeons with only one year out of med school.

Veridican

CardioTrans, BSN, RN · Mar 9, 2005

The PT that you spoke with sounds like one of my friends. She is a masters prepared PT. She also believes that at MINIMUM, nurses need a BSN to be considered professional. Dont even get me started on her. We constantly argue about that.

You also must take into consideration that in order for a nurse to enter most masters programs, they must have at least one year of clinical experience. Notice I said "most" require this, not all. However, most nurses who enter an accelerated program or dont have a yr of experience when they begin, will by the end of the 1-2 year MSN program. I dont believe that is a requirement for therapist or social workers.

hcmanp, NP · Mar 9, 2005

Well, this debate has been going on for QUITE some time, and will probably never come to a resolution for reasons that are as complex as they are contentious.

Recall, that social work, physical therapy and respiratory therapy all were originally under the domain of nursing. At some point the responsibilities became more quantifiable, and certain "sub-specialties" of care arose. These people realized what they had going for them, created a niche, legitimized their practice, and separated themselves from nursing. They promptly banded together and created their own societies and schools.They were then able to decide what qualified as sufficient education for entry into their particular practice.

Nurses were not as savvy then, and they were glad not to have these "extra" responsibilities taking them away from their claimed vocation of bedside care. Therefore, we are now left with exactly that.

So, how much education is necessary to provide this care? You get as many answers as there are nurses and subspecialties of nurses. Hence, we have the AORN, CCRN, CNMs, NPs and CRNAs and any of a number of professional societies that are pushing for BSN and higher as minimum entry into nursing practice. They are trying to legitimize nursing in a society that values education and (usually) pays comensurately for that education. Juxtaposed against this is the nurse who does a great job of providing the best bedside care in the civilized world, but feels that a one or two year degree from a vocational paradigm is sufficient for the job s/he does.

How to justify bundling all of these important contributors to our medical care under the umbrella title of "nurse"? I think that is the real question. What defines a "nurse", and how much education is really needed?

Hope you sleep well with that on your mind! :rolleyes:

Nesher, BSN, RN · Mar 9, 2005

Thanks for the thoughtful discussions.

I think nurses should be ASN as entry level, but need to get a BSN within 5 years.

camay1221_RN · Mar 9, 2005

Thanks for the thoughtful discussions.
I think nurses should be ASN as entry level, but need to get a BSN within 5 years.

That sounds good in theory, but sometimes it just isn't possible to get that BSN within 5 years. I am a diploma grad and I have every intention of getting my BSN. However, I got pregnant with my 1st child in my last semester of nursing school, and my husband and I decided to go ahead and have our family. So, right now, I have three kids, 3,5, and 7. I don't want to take time from my kids to return to school to continue my education until the youngest starts school full time. So by time that rolls around, I will have graduated almost ten years ago. Funny how life just speeds by without you ever noticing. However, I plan on making the most of it when that time comes, and go ahead and get my BSN and probably my MSN.

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Mar 9, 2005

Do people want to spend 6 years in school, to handle diarrhea, vomiting, blood,getting screamed at, hurt their backs trying to move people, working weekends/nights/holidays and get bitten?????

I personally think that everyone in every profession would benefit from a master's degree. But it isn't going to happen.

RN34TX · Mar 9, 2005

Then that's it. That's what I've always thought. It's supply and demand. As soon as there is no nursing shortage (give us one bad recession) the minimum education level will begin to rise for nurses. The job itself requires an incredible amount of knowledge in order to be done right and efficiently. The responsibility is staggering. It needs a strong academic foundation, or does it?
Apparently, it does not. My point is that neither does PT or SW, it's just that there is less demand for them and more people willing to do that work.
If there was a massive plague or a war (God forbid) all current RNs would become instant NPs without the need for collaboration and all LPNs would become RNs and all aids would become LPNs. I recently learned that during the Korean war, many surgeons were sent over to be surgeons with only one year out of med school.
Veridican

Are you at it again?

Nurses can't even agree on the ADN vs. BSN thing.

I'm not sure how correct your predictions of the future of nursing would be but I'd be willing to agree that they are not completely off.

My first job was on a unit that when originally opened, was only going to be staffed strictly by BSN's only. They had big dreams, didn't they?

I got hired on there as a brand new grad LPN if that tells you anything.

Then I worked in a state that smugly brags that they are not affected by any nursing shortage. I opened up the paper every sunday and saw a LOT of BSN required or at least preferred positions, and these were bedside staff positions, not managerial type positions.

Supply and demand? You bet. If hospitals in Texas could afford to be picky about BSN nurses, they would be. But they are in no position to be, at least right now.

And I've heard more than one PT in my career complain about their wages in comparison to nurses and yet were required to have so much education, one told me that PT's educated themselves right out of a job in an effort to "upgrade" their profession.

Let's face it, some people who earn bachelors degrees and definitely most people with masters degrees have no plans on cleaning up diarrhea and vomit after their hard earned work in school to get their degrees.

Ross1 · Mar 9, 2005

Why don't you compare ASN/BSN salaries to Master's level PT and SW salaries. Can't speak for PT, however, if you look at MSW salaries in comparison to ASN/BSN RN salaries, you will find that it is usually the case that an RN with a 2 year associates degree makes way more money then an MSW. Social Work (and perhaps teaching) are the lowest paid of all "professions." Some social work jobs in health care institutions do pay on par with nursing, maybe even higher on occasion, but overall, there are no opportunities for advancement in such settings for a social worker and the vast majority of social work jobs no longer exist in health care settings (partly due to the rise of "nursing case management" which has taken over many of the traditional social work responsibilities in health care).

As to PT.....the first thing that comes to mind for me is the salaries of Physical Therapy Assistants. The PTA degree is a 2 year associates degree, however, unlike ASN/ADN RNs, PTA are always "assistants", have limited opportunities for professional growth, have a fairly low salary (to my knowledge they typically earn in the 30s...but maybe I'm wrong), and they operate under a complete different licence then a PT and must always be practicing with a PT.

Each profession has its pros and cons.

Antikigirl, ASN, RN · Mar 9, 2005

Simple..answer is heck no! If faced with having to get my MSN I would get the heck out of dodge! I am not satisfied in nursing in general in my area to continue to pay more for papers that prove I can do what I already do! What...more papers/essays, more theory, larger projects and booksmarts make you 'better' than a nurse that is out there actually working out there an gaining experience???? (we are talking about starting out with the masters).

Book smarts are great, but exprience actually is the only thing that will make a difference in actually making connections, dealing with the dynamics of patients and facilites in general (you have to learn how to deal with the beurocracy of workplaces just as much as you learn about patients!). I say start out as a BSN or ADN (like I did, because I was uncertain if I would enjoy nursing so I said heck no to more school unless I found it satifying...so far NO BSN till things perk up around my area! No nursing shortage here, and no respect at all for nurses...) and see if this is something you want to go on with...instead of starting off with a masters and then saying "oh man why did I do this!?!?!?" and be miserable with that much time and money invested in it!!!!!!!!

Some folks are made to be nurses and love it..others are made for it and my not be in their niche or generally like it..others just find out they can pass tests and aren't nurse material...and with the different levels of starting..all three types can find their place and move on with their dreams...making a masters a starting point...that will only lead to more heart break and sorrow for the last two examples who find this may not be what they wanted or expected....

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Mar 9, 2005

I think nurses should be ASN as entry level, but need to get a BSN within 5 years.

And that would make the nursing shortage even worse.