The Veridican

I'm glad to hear you got some A's in school (GPA 3.5) because I think this question is always asked too late. When I took NCLEX I discoverd that my review helped very little. All that mattered was that I worked really hard in all four levels of nursing school (above 90% in all four levels), and took the NCLEX as soon as I could. I needed the knowledge and test taking ability and critical thinking from nursing school--all of it. I really didn't need my review. With a 3.5 in nursing school, I have no doubt you will pass. Sign up for the first NCLEX you can take. Good Luck The Veridican

Then that's it. That's what I've always thought. It's supply and demand. As soon as there is no nursing shortage (give us one bad recession) the minimum education level will begin to rise for nurses. The job itself requires an incredible amount of knowledge in order to be done right and efficiently. The responsibility is staggering. It needs a strong academic foundation, or does it? Apparently, it does not. My point is that neither does PT or SW, it's just that there is less demand for them and more people willing to do that work. If there was a massive plague or a war (God forbid) all current RNs would become instant NPs without the need for collaboration and all LPNs would become RNs and all aids would become LPNs. I recently learned that during the Korean war, many surgeons were sent over to be surgeons with only one year out of med school. Veridican

Actually, I don't understand what you are saying, and I mean that sympathetically. I doubt I would understand the situation even if I was working there. The bottom line is that facilities especially LTC facilities can try whatever they think they can get away with, and RNs and LPNs can do surgery if they never get caught and the patient doesn't complain (I knew an LPN that wanted me to help her re-insert a peg tube once when I was an aid--I refused.) Anyone can do anything they are physically capable of doing--so long as some other force doesn't stop them (i.e., courts, BON, JACHO, State Health Department, etc.) If gross neglect can be tollerated, as I often saw at the LTC facility where I worked, what's wrong with the janitor calling the MD to get an order for a narcotic? I'm sure, if you are doing a good job in charge of your hall, that everyone is in good hands, especially the patient. After all, you are a nurse. The Veridican

You only say that because you don't have an RN license and a masters degree. Maybe you're not the academic type, fine. Be an LPN--the world needs good LPNs. But if you have the ability to do more (financially, circumstantially, academically) and you don't, you will always be part of the caste that has to say "I'm a nurse, too." I'm not attacking LPNs in this string. I'm just trying to understand their role. You're attacking LPNs by spitting on BSN-RNs, because the only people who need to spit on others are those who feel less than others. And here's another truth that's a big pill to swallow: you can't be humble when you have to be subservient. Christ was only humble, because He was really God. The Veridican

They can call you charge all day long. The RN is responsible for the patients he/she has assigned to him/her. If the facility has put you in charge of managing the facility, that's fine. The RNs know full well that when it comes to apporpriate and safe care of their patients in that facility; they are on their own with the MDs orders, the BON scope of practice, and the facility policies. They may come to you with their time card corrections, but they would be ill advised to come to you with a question like "Do you think I need to call the MD about this or that?" The Veridican

I met a PT the other day who told me that the entry into their profession was a masters degree, and yet, I kind of think of an RN as a more direct care provider. I mean, PTs don't even administer medications. Should RNs have the masters degree as the minimum entry requirement into the profession? I'm not talking about ADN vs BSN. I'm talking about why does it seem that RNs have way more responsibility in terms of care coordination, education, med administration, supervision, procedures, etc.; we're considered a "learned profession" and yet social workers, PTs, and speech therapists have to have masters degrees. Our feild does have a terminal doctorate degree, the D.NSc., but in reality the terminal degree for clinical nursing is the MSN. Why do we start out with only an ADN? And if that's all we need to enter the profession, why would a PT or social worker ever even need to go to college? School me! The Veridican

Yes, I see what you mean by one profession rolling into another. I see modern healthcare divided into diagnosis and treatment of the patient and care of the patient. The MD being the basis of dx and tx and the nurse being the basis for care. Nurses must have MDs and MDs must have nurses. All other feilds of health care have to fall into one of those categories and assist in that category. So then, what is a nurse? And with that I think I will start a new post. Take care Veridican

Karen, I do respect your opinion here, and the others as well, but yours comes from experience. You've seen both sides. I think I can understand that it's not about "assistant" as much as it is about scope of practice. I see that they are two different types of nurses. My view has been slanted because I work on a floor (cardiology/ICU stepdown) and only RNs are used along with MSTs (multi-skilled techs). And it's the only place I've worked as a nurse. The scope of practice required necessitates RNs, but this is not the case on other floors, nor is it the case in many settings, i.e. home health, hospice, LTC, etc. And to others, I don't think this string is beating a dead horse. I have changed how I view things as a result, so that is why it has been going on. And it will go on again, because it's a subject people like to talk about--just like BSN vs ADN. I haven't seen any examples of insults, or any examples of flaming, etc. I think this is a good topic that has been well handled. The Veridican

It's great to hear from UK nurses! I lived in Swindon, Wiltshire for 8 years. I'd love to return to England. I love England. But I suppose I'm an American, and I belong here now. I don't have anything to add re: your plight as NHS nurses, but I wonder if the grass is ever greener on the other side in our field? Nursing is such a hard job and few can handle it. Of course the same could be said for hanging on a cross, and yet that's where the glory is. The hardest shift is offset by the fact that very few human beings could ever function on such a shift. Imagine what the average person would do if they were suddenly thrust into your role. I hate nursing--everyone hates nursing--but the glory is addictive. The Veridican

This is exactly the backwoods attitude I was referring to earlier, and the same mentality as the old nurse at the nursing home who felt I was only an aid there to get a peek at the naked old women. So here's my stand: A woman being a nurse is just a woman being a nurse. It's in their nature. A man being a cop or doctor or firefighter is just another man being a cop, doctor or firefighter--it's in their nature. A man who can be a nurse is a glorious thing, because he has transcended his nature. A woman who can be a firefighter is a glorious thing, because she has transcended her nature. To those who can't transcend their nature, I have no pity. I hope they all get forced by Catholic bishops to dress up like nurses, and I hope all the ADN wannabes who can't transcend their natures end up making coffee for the male MDs who throw charts at them and ridicule their competence! Whew! What a catharsis! The Veridican

Maybe I didn't go back far enough. Wasn't nursing primarily done by men in Catholic orders? Of course, if one goes back too far then the whole role of nursing disappears, and all you have is doctors coming to people's houses and putting leaches on them and letting the family care for them. I guess what I would like to know is when were the first hospitals established and were the nurses male or female. And what about psychiatric hospitals? Weren't they traditionally staffed by men? The Veridican

getting over-emotional, apparently.

I must admit, I didn't really like the 75-and-shut-off result I got when I tested. When I look back on it, how could they determine with just those questions if I really knew anything? Nevertheless, I'm a good nurse. I'd like to see research that correlates those who shut off at 75 and passed and those who got 150+ before passing in terms of learning ability or training difficulties in their internships. Veridican

I think the OP is just joking with the alphabet soup. Since one can't really be a CNA and an RN at the same time. Veridican

You may have a point here. If they actually have different scopes of practice, then it could be said that they are two different professions. I have often said that in our hospital the techs would do better and be better served if they had their own chain of command apart from nurses--just as nurses have apart from MDs. But if the LPN is a different profession, then where do they fall? Is it like MD vs DO? I could accept that. But then don't make me responsible for delegating to an LPN. By the way, LPNs cannot be members of the ANA. Do LPNs have their own governing body? Veridican