I met a PT the other day who told me that the entry into their profession was a masters degree, and yet, I kind of think of an RN as a more direct care provider. I mean, PTs don't even administer medications.
Should RNs have the masters degree as the minimum entry requirement into the profession?
I'm not talking about ADN vs BSN. I'm talking about why does it seem that RNs have way more responsibility in terms of care coordination, education, med administration, supervision, procedures, etc.; we're considered a "learned profession" and yet social workers, PTs, and speech therapists have to have masters degrees.
Our feild does have a terminal doctorate degree, the D.NSc., but in reality the terminal degree for clinical nursing is the MSN. Why do we start out with only an ADN? And if that's all we need to enter the profession, why would a PT or social worker ever even need to go to college?
Specializes in ICU, CCU, Trauma, neuro, Geriatrics.
Everyone in nursing is there for a reason, their own reason. Allowing a wide variety of entry levels into the workplace allows for skilled persons to work directly with patients. No med trained aids, no assistants to assistants. I have worked with many excellent LPN's, diploma nurses, ADN's, BSN's and MSN's. Education in the United States is income based, if you have the cash you can learn anything. How is it that we can empathize with our drug abuser patient but not even come close to understanding why an LPN who was an abused spouse took a nursing class, became an LPN, advanced her lifestyle, took her kids with her out of an abusive environment, is working her butt off to send her kids to college and is not just as good a nurse at bedside as the BSN fresh out of college and catered to through life by a well meaning family. This discussion comes back to life status in the rare form. Our ancestors left England on boats to get away from that repression. Jump down from your throne and jump into nursing with gloves on and love it like most of us do.
Specializes in Education, Acute, Med/Surg, Tele, etc.
I think stirring things up because you have a legitimately different point of view is one thing. I, too, enjoy lively debates and can never understand why those who don't, choose to participate and then chide the rest of us for being mean or nasty when we challenge their statements and opinions. OTOH, the reason this forum has moderators is to ensure that there is a distinction between lively discussion and rancor stirred up for rancor's sake. I have participated in unmoderated forums before and invariably, the reason they have folded is because without someone ensuring that rules of fair play are observed, what started out as an interesting difference of opinion turned into an insult laden anarchy and the only people who wanted to come post anymore were the troublemakers. I imagine that the OP was banned because a moderator, who has guidelines for making that distinction, felt that the line was crossed. Now, where in the dickens did that my two cents icon disappear off to?
Oh me too MercyTeaPot! I belonged to a wonderful local news forum that got a few unsavories in it (people that would start tension on purpose, then slam anyone that said anything...even their side!)...we called them trolls! It was ruined by them...and I lost several friends I had met because we all eventually had to leave, couldn't carry on a normal forum at all ....
So we started our own, and still going strong after 2 years! We are very timid to invite new members because we all know eachother and came from the same place and don't want a repeat...but I will admit...lively or slightly heated convos are lacking and it does get a bit boring...
It is not easy being a moderator or admin in forums! I have had to ban a few members before and I really felt horrible, but had too...but what they did was pretty bad, got three warnings in e-mail and on forum...and well, thought that was enough...but still hard!
I have seen some banning of threads that I felt was a bit rushed, but it is better to stop things before they get started, and I think the mods are doing a great job! As I said..it isn't easy to choose what or whom to ban...it is very subjective material!
Anyway...little off subject, but I was suprised this thread wasn't banned after a page or two as I start to know this forum a bit more!
And for me on different degrees...I will work with ADN, BSN, Masters...doesn't matter. I will not treat them better or worse...but as members of my team doing the same job for the same goal...our patients wellness :). I think that is the bottom line...work together, learn from eachother, respect eachother as nurses, and get the job done right because...well...great goal in my opinion..why not :)!
You know what; I truly don't get this downing others' educational choices at all. Disdaining MSN's *IS* no better than putting down AD RN's. Suzy is right. Such remarks serve only to incite, insult and anger others, doing nothing at all to solve the problem or unite us.
I am finishing my BSN at a supposedly "prestigious" nursing school. The last quarter, I have written papers, done a big project/presentation, attended class, discussed ethics. Oh, did I mention patient contact? Whoops, there wasn't much!
My son is a medic in the Air Force. He has gotten more skills training in the last few months that I got in 2 years. He wants to be a nurse, and I have recommended he do an ADN program, because he couldn't stand all the busywork a BSN requires.
Hopefully, I will look back in a year or so and be thankful for my BSN, but right now I am just frustrated that I won't be able to do some basic things at my first job.
The MSN program requires classes on nursing theory (Martha Rogers and energy fields. What was she smoking back in the 70's?)
Okay, I'm just cranky and tired of writing papers. But there's days that I wish I had done an ADN--maybe I would have more skills and patient exposure. What do you ADNs think??
Okay, I'm just cranky and tired of writing papers. But there's days that I wish I had done an ADN--maybe I would have more skills and patient exposure. What do you ADNs think??
Oldiebutgoodie
I think it's a matter of where you go. I asked the same question on another thread and got varied answers, with sometimes the BSN getting less clinical, others the same. We've two BSN students doing their preceptorship on my unit and they are getting lots of experience, hands on, many hours, etc. It was much more compared to my ADN program. 99.9999999999% of what I know know as an ADN nurse (working on my BSN) I learned on the job, and I'm sure it will be the same with you.
I am finishing my BSN at a supposedly "prestigious" nursing school. The last quarter, I have written papers, done a big project/presentation, attended class, discussed ethics. Oh, did I mention patient contact? Whoops, there wasn't much!
My son is a medic in the Air Force. He has gotten more skills training in the last few months that I got in 2 years. He wants to be a nurse, and I have recommended he do an ADN program, because he couldn't stand all the busywork a BSN requires.
Hopefully, I will look back in a year or so and be thankful for my BSN, but right now I am just frustrated that I won't be able to do some basic things at my first job.
The MSN program requires classes on nursing theory (Martha Rogers and energy fields. What was she smoking back in the 70's?)
Okay, I'm just cranky and tired of writing papers. But there's days that I wish I had done an ADN--maybe I would have more skills and patient exposure. What do you ADNs think??
Oldiebutgoodie
It does make a difference where your education is obtained.
The MSN program I am in is a administrative domain based Masters....they also have clinically based domains, but my preferance is administrative, mostly do the field I want to work in.
I am in Ontario, Canada and BSN as entry to practice is here, started this year. So a Masters is seen a the next logically step, if you want to leave the bedside. Not everyone does, I work at the bedside and work with many RN's who love it and never want to leave. However, I find myself often having to justify the educational process and why I would bother, etc etc. It seems to be part of the nursing culture to "question" people who want to move up or on, enhance their own natural leadership abilities, persue other domains of practice. Unfortunate part of the nursing world.... it really tears down the profession when others constantly want to "question" your motives.
Last semester, when I was tired and working full time and doing 4 BSN courses (2 of them clinical placements) a nurse I work with "questioned" me and said" well, I guess you won't be down here with us wiping butts too much longer.... better than that now"....I remained silent at the moment but later, took him aside and told him how disappointed I was in his perspective and how would he like it if I "questioned" him about why after 25 years of nursing he had not taken courses, updated his leadership abilites, etc. He suddenly understood the reverse discrimination faced by many nurses... who just don't want to bother justifying their educational persuits by those who "question" the system constantly wanting to find fault.
I did a three year diploma RN program, followed by three years of BSN, and now MSN. I worked through the whole process...still work full time in ICU.
I have not reqetted a minute of it and I am over 45.
Good luck to all who venture to change the face of nursing. JMP
I was going to leave this alone, happy that a even a few people understood my points, which were:
1. Constantly debating the entry level for nursing is insulting to those of us at the ADN level.
2. Since none of us has any real say in changing the entry point for the professional nurse, all these types of threads and all the contention that they provoke is like pi**in' in the wind.
3. Finally, I do not really believe that MSNs lack common sense. If you'd read the postings that were immediately prior to mine, you would see that I was engaging in a little lighthearted sarcasm with another poster. In rereading my post, I realized that it did not stand alone well and could be interpreted as prejudicial and inflammatory--so I then apologised.
I will (please God) try to have the strength to refrain from posting on these and other useless "debates" from now on as my penance.
I agree that differing educational levels among nurses often divides our profession unnecessarily. Obviously, ADNs and BSNs take the same licensure testing, thus making both groups of nurses equally capable of performing the role of a nurse. Having worked in environments where most of the nurses had ADNs and environments where most nurses had BSNs, I have noticed there are often "insinuations", even blantant derogatory statements made about this issue. It is unfortunate.
I am on the other side of this issue. I am a BSN trained nurse who has experienced many derogatory statements suggesting I (and others) am deficient because I had "too much book learning" in my BSN program, mostly late at night in discussions at the nurses' station. Most of the individuals who made those statements would have told you that I am a great nurse, having no idea that I have a BSN. As I said before, we are obviously all capable of performing the role of a nurse. But, please don't knock nurses who choose to be educated in this way. It really is more than a couple of extra courses - most of which are not in nursing but to fulfill other requirements for the university. I find that nurses who have chosen to get the BSN or even MSN degrees often have to remain excessively meek regarding their accomplishment to endure the rigors of the educational demands. And, our time and effort to finish these programs is often reduced to us having "a couple of extra courses."
Many of the threads in this discussion made by ADNs or diploma nurses have mentioned that the reason they haven't gotten a BSN is because of the amount of time and sacrifice that it would take in their lives. On that note, why on earth would anyone bash someone who has made those sacrifices to enhance themselves and ultimately our profession?
I rarely suggest that I have a BSN in the workplace. If it even comes up, it is not meant to make anyone feel "deficient" or that they might be less of a nurse because they have an ADN or LPN or whatever the case may be. And, it's unfortunate that just because I mention my degree, individuals may automatically make the assumption that I think they are less qualified in some way.
I appreciate your perspective, and I am sure you are a good nurse. All I ask is that you please try to remember the perspective of the BSNs out there. We catch a lot of flack as well.
I am finishing my BSN at a supposedly "prestigious" nursing school. The last quarter, I have written papers, done a big project/presentation, attended class, discussed ethics. Oh, did I mention patient contact? Whoops, there wasn't much!
So would you rather be paying to do patient contact in school(which you will get anyway) or "preparing" to do even better patient care when you get out? Just curious.
My son is a medic in the Air Force. He has gotten more skills training in the last few months that I got in 2 years. He wants to be a nurse, and I have recommended he do an ADN program, because he couldn't stand all the busywork a BSN requires.
I was also a medic and learned a lot of skills, such as suturing, minor surgery, etc., all of which I could not do outside the military because we demand better prepared health care professionals for our civilians. I will repeat again for those who have trouble with this concept: if you are seeking technical skills only, consider your local trade school.
Hopefully, I will look back in a year or so and be thankful for my BSN, but right now I am just frustrated that I won't be able to do some basic things at my first job.
You're not expected to come out of nursing school with a big "S" on your chest. It will take years before you get comfortable. My wife, a teacher, says it takes 5 years for a new teacher to get it all together. Be patient.
The MSN program requires classes on nursing theory (Martha Rogers and energy fields. What was she smoking back in the 70's?)
Energy medicine is really coming into the forefront now! Maybe her smokes got her there quicker! :chuckle
Okay, I'm just cranky and tired of writing papers. But there's days that I wish I had done an ADN--maybe I would have more skills and patient exposure. What do you ADNs think??
In the 80s I got $95 an hour writing papers for some malpractice attorneys! Writing was good!
I was really big on learning all the "technical stuff" in nursing which is why I started off in a trauma center. After years of that and other critical care areas, I realized something was missing and got my masters in psych nursing.
If you are technically proficient in one area, you may be useless in another. But I can walk into any unit confident that I can make a difference in a patient's/family lives without doing anything technical. Remember that doctors are paralyzed when the electricity goes off; do you want to be like them? :rotfl:
All I ask is that you please try to remember the perspective of the BSNs out there. We catch a lot of flack as well.
Thanks,
lifejourney
Interesting perspective and thanks for sharing. That BSNs are high and mighty arrogant book smart RNs who don't know how to really take care of a patient like an ADN nurse is a myth perpetuated by people with low self-esteem. :chair:
I was going to leave this alone, happy that a even a few people understood my points, which were:
1. Constantly debating the entry level for nursing is insulting to those of us at the ADN level.
2. Since none of us has any real say in changing the entry point for the professional nurse, all these types of threads and all the contention that they provoke is like pi**in' in the wind.
I will (please God) try to have the strength to refrain from posting on these and other useless "debates" from now on as my penance.
~Peace~Love~Goodwill to All~
~And to all a Good Night~
Try as I may, eventually I always have to put my two cents in. So if you can stay out of the debates, your a better person than I am. :rotfl:
I don't think you speak for all ADNs that we're insulted when someone says the entry level degree for an RN should be a BSN. I'm not insulted by that at all. I've just maintained that if is going to be the case, then they take a different NCLEX than ADN's do, commiserate with their higher education. I don't have to be called an RN, as long as I can keep doing what I'm doing at the bedside and they don't touch my money. :)
I think being insulted has to do a lot with the presentations. For instance if someone says "BSN are the only real nurses and ADNs are just techs", then yes, I'm insulted. But if someone says "in order to advance and be recognized and defined as a profression, we need to make the entry level degree for RNs a BSN", then no, that's just an opinion that doesn't insult me a bit.
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snowfreeze, BSN, RN
948 Posts
Everyone in nursing is there for a reason, their own reason. Allowing a wide variety of entry levels into the workplace allows for skilled persons to work directly with patients. No med trained aids, no assistants to assistants. I have worked with many excellent LPN's, diploma nurses, ADN's, BSN's and MSN's. Education in the United States is income based, if you have the cash you can learn anything. How is it that we can empathize with our drug abuser patient but not even come close to understanding why an LPN who was an abused spouse took a nursing class, became an LPN, advanced her lifestyle, took her kids with her out of an abusive environment, is working her butt off to send her kids to college and is not just as good a nurse at bedside as the BSN fresh out of college and catered to through life by a well meaning family. This discussion comes back to life status in the rare form. Our ancestors left England on boats to get away from that repression. Jump down from your throne and jump into nursing with gloves on and love it like most of us do.