Should nurses have MSNs

[The Veridican]

I met a PT the other day who told me that the entry into their profession was a masters degree, and yet, I kind of think of an RN as a more direct care provider. I mean, PTs don't even administer medications.

Should RNs have the masters degree as the minimum entry requirement into the profession?

I'm not talking about ADN vs BSN. I'm talking about why does it seem that RNs have way more responsibility in terms of care coordination, education, med administration, supervision, procedures, etc.; we're considered a "learned profession" and yet social workers, PTs, and speech therapists have to have masters degrees.

Our feild does have a terminal doctorate degree, the D.NSc., but in reality the terminal degree for clinical nursing is the MSN. Why do we start out with only an ADN? And if that's all we need to enter the profession, why would a PT or social worker ever even need to go to college?

School me!

The Veridican

[SmilingBluEyes]

I wont' argue w/you angie. I guess the best things is to ignore people who make ridiculous and ignorant or arrogant statements. If we all did, they would have no audience to gain attention from. We DO know better, after all. Those who don't, we either can try to educate and if they still "don't get it" ignore. The ignore feature was NOT removed upon upgrade of the allnurses website/system, in case anyone forgot. Sometimes, we just can't get shinola from sh** after all.

[tntrn, ASN, RN]

I have yet to be able to tell by looking at any of my coworkers who's got an ASN, ADN, BSN, or MSN (very few MSN's working at the bedside here, though). I certainly wouldn't go that kind of effort, time and money, not to mention the disruption in my private life to do bedside nursing and suffer the abuse nurses are now expected to take on the chin.

I'm getting so fed up with regulations that require more and more paperwork, none of it having to do with actual nursing and all of it having to do with requirements to prove you did this or did that. At some point, there will no time whatsoever to even say hello to our patients. It's really getting out of hand. That's where I see the "educated" affecting nursing. Placing too much academic "stuff" into what has been historically as a very hands-on, compassionate calling and career. I find the ability to maintain that eroding. It's discouraging at the very least and further fuels my desire to just get out...not because I don't love what I was trained to do, but because it's becoming almost impossible to do it with the current requirements of the powers that be.

We now have to audit every single chart at discharge regarding about 20 or 25 different things: from did anyone use any of the do not use abbreviations, to smoking cessation lessons. Give me a break. If you've got 3 or 4 discharges (and 3 or 4 admits to replace them), just when is that supposed to get done?

There's less and less time to actually get to know your patients. When I get a rare shift when that's possible AND if it's a really cool patient/family, it's like a gift. Not the norm anymore to have that luxury...sadly.

[Q.]

I

I'm getting so fed up with regulations that require more and more paperwork, none of it having to do with actual nursing and all of it having to do with requirements to prove you did this or did that. At some point, there will no time whatsoever to even say hello to our patients. It's really getting out of hand. That's where I see the "educated" affecting nursing. Placing too much academic "stuff" into what has been historically as a very hands-on, compassionate calling and career. I find the ability to maintain that eroding. It's discouraging at the very least and further fuels my desire to just get out...not because I don't love what I was trained to do, but because it's becoming almost impossible to do it with the current requirements of the powers that be.

We now have to audit every single chart at discharge regarding about 20 or 25 different things: from did anyone use any of the do not use abbreviations, to smoking cessation lessons. Give me a break. If you've got 3 or 4 discharges (and 3 or 4 admits to replace them), just when is that supposed to get done?

There's less and less time to actually get to know your patients. When I get a rare shift when that's possible AND if it's a really cool patient/family, it's like a gift. Not the norm anymore to have that luxury...sadly.

I can surely sympathize with the excess paperwork, however to place blame on the "educated" for that seems mis-appropriated.

Many of the reasons for chart audits of the very things you listed (which my organization is doing also) is to comply with federal regulations. Getting to know your patients is great, but even better is providing them with smoking cessation counseling/information and hopefully improving their quality of life ~ leading to a healthy lifestyle and leading to less admits and complications.

Saying "hello" to your patients is also nice, but so is not using abbreviations which could potentially harm your patient and/or kill them. You may have said hello to them, but now they are suffering potentially serious side effects, injury or death because someone confused "cc" to be zeros and gave a lethal bolus of dopamine.

So really, these regulations have everything to do with nursing.

Nursing has to keep up with practice, keep current with research. Simply being altruistic isn't keeping patients alive anymore ~ knowing what works and what doesn't does.

In my organization we also audited charts for patient education records and found that only 12% of them did an actual literacy assessment of the patient. So these patients were being given educational materials that were at an 8th grade reading level which is much too complex for most patients. You may as well NOT have educated them because they could not read the handouts. The patients were unable to know how to take care of themselves or prevent readmissions. These patients are then labeled as "noncompliant." How is that helping them? Is that nursing? Absolutely not. That kind of lazze-faire attitude blamed on staffing just doesn't sit well with me.

Nursing as a profession is better than that. And rather than blaming "the educated" for making your life harder and fighting it, look at how it HELPS the very patients you care for.

[KRVRN, BSN, RN]

Why was the OP banned?

[NurseFirst]

While I've come to the conclusion that ADN nurses kill more patients than BSN...then BSN's kill more than MSN's and ADN"s kill WAY more than MSNs. Thats a lot of dead patients.

But wait a minute, most MSN nurses don't do beside nursing...but thats still NO EXCUSE!!

GUN'S DON'T KILL PEOPLE ADN'S KILL PEOPLE!!!

Tim (ADN Student)

References, please!!!!

[NurseFirst]

I think in some cases, too much education IS a bad thing, Marie. I mean, look at all the do-nothing talking heads of the ANA.

I know--heresy.

But still. Have you ever known an MSN with a grain of common sense?

Yup. And since the only MSNs I've known have been my instructors, I am happy to say I haven't met an MSN who didn't have LOTS of common sense!!!

NurseFirst

[Fiona59]

RU saying veridican is banned??? When did that happen? I kind of found his/her attempts to stir things up funny....

[KRVRN, BSN, RN]

SmilinBlueEyes mentioned that the OP wouldn't be responding anymore, and when I looked, it does say Banned under the name! And I agree, the stirring up of stuff was kinda entertaining!

[LydiaNN]

I think stirring things up because you have a legitimately different point of view is one thing. I, too, enjoy lively debates and can never understand why those who don't, choose to participate and then chide the rest of us for being mean or nasty when we challenge their statements and opinions. OTOH, the reason this forum has moderators is to ensure that there is a distinction between lively discussion and rancor stirred up for rancor's sake. I have participated in unmoderated forums before and invariably, the reason they have folded is because without someone ensuring that rules of fair play are observed, what started out as an interesting difference of opinion turned into an insult laden anarchy and the only people who wanted to come post anymore were the troublemakers. I imagine that the OP was banned because a moderator, who has guidelines for making that distinction, felt that the line was crossed. Now, where in the dickens did that my two cents icon disappear off to?

[jeepgirl, LPN, NP]

For those of you who took umbrage at my thoughtless remark, I earnestly apologise.

But in turn, I have a question:

Was my remark any less insulting than the insinuation of this and similar threads, that ADN preparation for nursing is somehow deficient--and by extension, that all ADN nurses are therefore not as smart or as good as the BSN or MSN-prepared nurses?

Because that is how it sounds to me, an ADN-prepared nurse. The subtle insult that I somehow don't measure up because I had a couple of courses fewer than other nurses does not lessen its impact just because it's not explicitly stated. The implication is there. It's divisive, it's unnecessary, and it's rude.

Maybe we all need to think before we post.

Angie... I can kind of see what you're saying. How often have we had a CNS come into our unit and the nurses scoff at them? Or refused to take our kids to a certain NP?

Not that they are representative of the population however.

Sometimes I wonder if we're just looking at them under a microscope because of their status rather than looking at them as collegues. We all make mistakes / goofs.

I hope some day to be an advanced practice nurse. But I'm worried about being looked at with the same microscope.

[jeepgirl, LPN, NP]

Why was the OP banned?

i don't know the exact reason, but i have a haunch. that poster was constantly saying rude comments in multiple threads to get people all wound up.

i'm glad the poster was banned.

[lifejourney]

For those of you who took umbrage at my thoughtless remark, I earnestly apologise.

But in turn, I have a question:

Was my remark any less insulting than the insinuation of this and similar threads, that ADN preparation for nursing is somehow deficient--and by extension, that all ADN nurses are therefore not as smart or as good as the BSN or MSN-prepared nurses?

Because that is how it sounds to me, an ADN-prepared nurse. The subtle insult that I somehow don't measure up because I had a couple of courses fewer than other nurses does not lessen its impact just because it's not explicitly stated. The implication is there. It's divisive, it's unnecessary, and it's rude.

Maybe we all need to think before we post.

Angie,

I agree that differing educational levels among nurses often divides our profession unnecessarily. Obviously, ADNs and BSNs take the same licensure testing, thus making both groups of nurses equally capable of performing the role of a nurse. Having worked in environments where most of the nurses had ADNs and environments where most nurses had BSNs, I have noticed there are often "insinuations", even blantant derogatory statements made about this issue. It is unfortunate.

I am on the other side of this issue. I am a BSN trained nurse who has experienced many derogatory statements suggesting I (and others) am deficient because I had "too much book learning" in my BSN program, mostly late at night in discussions at the nurses' station. Most of the individuals who made those statements would have told you that I am a great nurse, having no idea that I have a BSN. As I said before, we are obviously all capable of performing the role of a nurse. But, please don't knock nurses who choose to be educated in this way. It really is more than a couple of extra courses - most of which are not in nursing but to fulfill other requirements for the university. I find that nurses who have chosen to get the BSN or even MSN degrees often have to remain excessively meek regarding their accomplishment to endure the rigors of the educational demands. And, our time and effort to finish these programs is often reduced to us having "a couple of extra courses."

Many of the threads in this discussion made by ADNs or diploma nurses have mentioned that the reason they haven't gotten a BSN is because of the amount of time and sacrifice that it would take in their lives. On that note, why on earth would anyone bash someone who has made those sacrifices to enhance themselves and ultimately our profession?

I rarely suggest that I have a BSN in the workplace. If it even comes up, it is not meant to make anyone feel "deficient" or that they might be less of a nurse because they have an ADN or LPN or whatever the case may be. And, it's unfortunate that just because I mention my degree, individuals may automatically make the assumption that I think they are less qualified in some way.

I appreciate your perspective, and I am sure you are a good nurse. All I ask is that you please try to remember the perspective of the BSNs out there. We catch a lot of flack as well.

Thanks,

lifejourney