Still don't get the BSN ADN thing... - page 2
One of biggest mysteries I had after I started nursing was: BSN increases patient outcome. What? Just because I shoved up few more dollars into greedy university's rear, that makes me a better... Read More
Jul 12, '14Joined: Nov '12; Posts: 401; Likes: 496Say what y'all want but a girl about to graduate with a BSN was clueless about how to clean a female patient during peri care.
I also don't understand the point made previously about "broadening horizons" as far as the BSN goes. I do however agree with those who say it's just a lot of APA and paperwork.
My stance: same stuff, just more loans and longer time
But whatevs right? If it means job security then may as well do the BSN, they make it easy enough with it entirely online now
Jul 12, '14Joined: Apr '11; Posts: 3,464; Likes: 4,623Probably the biggest thing about BSN is that the extra research stuff provides the student/graduate a framework for going further with their education. Because I have a Bachelors and have much of the UDGE coursework, I could go from ADN to MSN and essentially skip or pick up a BSN along the way. BSN is a valuable thing... but IMHO if you have a BS in a healthcare field, you probably already know much of the stuff already.
Jul 12, '14Joined: Nov '12; Posts: 401; Likes: 496Also all this going back and forth us getting old. RN is an RN. ADN or BSN doesn't make you any better and that's proven daily in the real world setting. Those who HAVE the critical thinking skills down, the WILL and ABILITY to remain calm/helpful/loving/ and available during an entire 12 hour crazy shift, and an open heart for all people - that's a good nurse.
I don't care if you are a BSN or came from such and such. A bad nurse is a bad nurse, and a nurse with a bad attitude and ugly heart is even worse.
Jul 12, '14Occupation: LPN Specialty: 5 year(s) of experience in . ; From: US ; Joined: Jun '10; Posts: 3,742; Likes: 16,006Quote from BostonFNPI know this is sounding like a broken record, but correlation between two pieces of data does not always equal causation.Just because you may "doubt" it doesn't mean it isn't true. That's why studies are done in the first place, because gut feeling isn't the way healthcare should be practiced.
It's the scientific process.
There are many variables to consider. Hospitals with a higher percentaage of BSN RNs also tend to be in big cities. They have more funding, better staffing ratios, better equipment, better access to specialists, etc then their counterparts out in the sticks.
The hospitals that have a higher percentage of ADNs and LPNs, on the other hand, tend to be rural..... which makes sense when one considers there are huge swaths of isolated areas where community colleges might be the only access to higher education.
Now, I'm not saying the degree a nurse possess has no impact on patient outcomes. That would be insane. But anyone who has worked in healthcare knows that a hospital's monetary resources, its access to diagnostic equipment and to specialized physicians all play huge roles in patient outcomes.
We know that areas underserved by universities will also be areas with lower percentages of BSN prepared nurses. These areas also tend to be less cosmopolitan and less affluent than areas with high percentages of BSN nurses. So, in addition to having fewer BSNs, hospitals in these areas will also have less funding, less equipment and higher nurse-patient ratios.
My question is: Is it really fair to conclude ADN nurses provide unsafe care as a result of their education, when they statistically tend to be working with fewer resources and higher ratios than their BSN counterparts? Doesn't that skew the data, at least a little?
Jul 12, '14Joined: Jun '08; Posts: 1,786; Likes: 1,308None of the studies matter.
I mean,we could argue about this till you are blue in the face.
Employers want what employers want.
I know one thing is certain...I want to REMAIN employed esp in this competitive market.
Jul 12, '14Occupation: Nursing Student From: US ; Joined: Jul '14; Posts: 22; Likes: 52This is one of the things that I've gone back and forth over with going into nursing school, ADN or BSN. People have to do what's best for them, money and time wise. I don't know enough to say that one could be better over the other, I personally don't think the letters behind your name make you an excellent nurse. Experience and empathy and the ability to hold on to your sanity during long frustrating work hours and thankless family and patients would be my criteria on what makes an excellent nurse. For me, I'm starting with my ADN, then bridging into an RN program. It works best for me, and hopefully there will be plenty of opportunity for me to learn from great nurse aides and RNs alike on my road to becoming one myself.
I will echo what smartnurse said, employers are going to want what they want, and if they want a BSN, and that's what it takes for someone to get or keep a job in an already saturated market, then by all means, do that.
Jul 12, '14Occupation: ICU and ER Murse... Specialty: ICU and Emergency Nursing ; From: CA, US ; Joined: Mar '13; Posts: 513; Likes: 149The difference between ADN and BSN is only relative to the experience in the field, neiher being "better". A new grad BSN is not nearly as skilled as the ADN with 10 years ICU experience.
The main separation lies in the interest of the financially driven Corporatocracy we have succumbed to. Soon, ADN will be ELIMINATED from advanced care and BSN will be the standard minimum qualification. This has absolutely nothing to do with improving patient care. They have already been working on this by implementing the Hospital "Magnet" status (all staffed nurses must hold a BSN minimum).
You are absolutely correct in that the classes are the same or similar. The BSN is padded with a bunch of crap, and upper level GE courses that have nothing to do with nursing. There are some advanced nursing courses, but in time, the working RN would learn these skills.
The REAL difference is that the BSN graduated with much more DEBT, the MSN--whoa!!!-- WAY MORE DEBT.... and so on...
This is not just any debt--the perfect debt. No way out of it. Interest until you, or your children, or grandchildren die or finish paying it off at a MUCH higher price....
Jul 12, '14Specialty: Cardiac, ER, Pediatrics, Corrections ; Joined: Dec '13; Posts: 484; Likes: 565I've seen good and bad of both worlds. I've even worked with some phenomenal diploma nurses. I have a BSN. I do not think I am any better than anyone else. It's just a trend we are seeing. So many jobs are now saying BSN required..or BSN minimum. It makes me glad I went for a BSN, but I am in pain over my debt!
Jul 12, '14Occupation: ICU and ER Murse... Specialty: ICU and Emergency Nursing ; From: CA, US ; Joined: Mar '13; Posts: 513; Likes: 149My point, exactly...
Jul 12, '14Joined: Nov '13; Posts: 157; Likes: 344Quote from NonyvoleSome of this offends me. ADN programs do not take almost everybody. They have to maintain an 85 percent pass rate on first attempt at NCLEX just like any other nursing program. They are highly competitive to get into. I have a bachelors degree in another field. I worked hard and got a high gpa. However, there were no jobs in 2008, so what did I do like everyone and their mother? I went to a community college and got my nursing degree. I also got a high gpa in this program as well. I passed the nclex in 75 questions. My ADN program was considered one of the best among adn and bsn programs and we always received compliments that we seemed to know our stuff and were more prepared for clinicals than bsn students. I went to a community college because it was close to my home and affordable. My program had single mothers and mature students who were financially independent. My program had people who were going back for their 2nd career. My program had mothers who waited until their kids graduated highschool so they could finally take the time to educate themselves. They were all hardworking, intelligent, very professional, and very studious individuals. So to say people in a ADN program are angry, no, they are extremely grateful they finally get the chance to better themselves through a great education with the hopes of financial stability. So to shame ANYONE for doing that, no matter if they are going to a tech school for hvac or a "lowly" community college for a nursing degree that gets you the same job as a BSN, is bs. At least they have a shot at a job.I've seen good RNs from ADN programs and I've seen bad RNs from ADN programs. Same with BSN programs.
However, I must say that my opinion is that it's up to the students to make the most of their education. Educators present the information, but they can't make the students learn, they can't make the students develop critical thinking abilities. And then once they've passed the NCLEX, it's up to the individual to maintain their competency. Nobody should have things spoon-fed to them if they're able to feed themselves.
I will say this. In my experience, the ADN students that I've met have seemed angry. Why, I don't know. Confusion? Discomfort? Who knows, they never said and I never asked. My personal theory is that they had applied to BSN programs and were rejected, or were scared of rejection and the ADN programs they attended accepted almost anybody. (I will admit, rather selfishly, that I'm glad that it wasn't my license on the line with them. There were a couple that said they were CNAs and worked as CNAs and yet...couldn't do basic skills like check a pulse. Others were less than polite to the staff. Still others tried to do things that they didn't know how to do. But that comes down to the individual, and not the program.)
I do know that my BSN program had more clinical hours than the ADN programs. But at the same time, it also had more clinical hours than other BSN programs in my area.
Jul 12, '14Joined: Jul '10; Posts: 1,925; Likes: 4,315That offended me as well, iluvgusgus. I couldn't believe what I read. Most of the ADN programs that I am familiar with require a much higher ACT score, and are highly competitive, just to get in. The BSN programs around here are the ones that "take just about anybody." People that couldn't get into the ADN program had to either wait, or go ahead into the BSN program. The ADN programs are designed to get nurses into the workforce quicker. They are compact, no fluff, and have no room for lazy students. My ADN program was at a teaching university, by the way. (Why do people assume ADN programs are only offered at "community" colleges? So not true.) They were originally designed to ease the nursing shortage in the 80's. I, along with thousands of others, already had a degree and didn't want to be in school forever, esp. since we already had tons of humanities, etc. The nursing classes are the same. I took the ADN nursing classes right alongside the BSN students; the BSN students could make a 70 and pass; the ADN students had to make 84 and about on everything, or they were out of the program. If employers are asking for the BSN, that's fine. But for anyone to assume that the ADN student couldn't get into a BSN program is absurd. If anything, the ADN program was much more stringent. When I went back a few years later to get the BSN, I couldn't believe "this" was what all the fuss was about. Mine was cheap back then, but no way I would pay thousands for the BSN today. The classes were a joke, and I honestly learned nothing that I didn't already know. Oh yeah. You have no idea why someone is angry, unless you ask them. Maybe they have a horrible clinical instructor breathing down their neck. I seriously doubt they are angry because they "couldn't get into the BSN" program. Wow.
Jul 12, '14Joined: Jun '14; Posts: 73; Likes: 63As a diploma trained nurse who have worked with an array of ADN, ASN, BSN nurses I have seen the good the bad and the indifferent when it comes to clinical skills.
I believe Professional and Person Goals has a lot to do with the education trend but also the changing directions in nursing plays a big part. Personally speaking, I have always wanted to have my degree. I am working with ASN trained nurses who want to have their degrees and I have talked to people who asked "Really, you don't have your degree? Why, I thought you already did." Thankfully they won't be asking that for too much longer.
I say hats off to all nurses who have a degree and those who are working towards getting one!!
While I do not think having more education makes one a "better nurse," I believe it does a lot for providing resources and it does a lot for ones morale, and I think it shows a level of commitment and dedication to the profession.
Jul 12, '14Joined: Jul '10; Posts: 1,925; Likes: 4,315I remember when diploma nurses were abundant. They practically lived in the hospitals. Their skills were exceptional. The ones I was familiar with lived in a dorm in the hospital-based nursing school. They actually went to school for several years. If someone needed a urinary catheter, a chest tube, an IV, etc., the students had to do it. Every day, not just in clinicals. Those nurses could get out of school and hit the floor running; no lengthy orientation required.