Still don't get the BSN ADN thing...

[tarotale]

One of biggest mysteries I had after I started nursing was: BSN increases patient outcome. What? Just because I shoved up few more dollars into greedy university's rear, that makes me a better student? I used to think that I must be a badass and better than ADN because they are from community college (wooo), but find out, they take exactly same classes as we do, take the same test, and tadaa~ does exactly same things as we do; I met many ADNs and few of them being charge nurses, I didn't even know they were ADNs until they brought up the "I need to/am working on BSN right now." My unit auditor is ADN, and she is great! All BSN serves to me personally, is that it takes less time for me to achieve MSN, and that is it.

I have heard of the studies that show that BSN hospitals improves patient outcomes and resuscitation outcomes compared to ADN hospitals, etc but I can't help but doubt that. I'm a BSN but my degree does not upgrade my brain magically to remember the ACLS algorithm or to push epi better than the ADNs; it's really all experience and that's it. Is it a money thing for universities? Or was I lucky enough to work with only cool ADNs. Maybe someone has good explanation to this?

[RN4JUSTICE]

I think if you want a degree to further your education that is great. There are great nurses with degrees and without. Its wrong to bash nurses who are educated just as it wrong to bash nurses without a degree. We all bring something to the table. Its the nursing profession that demeans our profession by constantly demanding certifications that are costly and need to be renewed every few years. A nurse practitioner now needs a masters to practice. Why? The curriculum offers nothing that would enlighten an already professional nurse who has kept with CEUs and net working . Where is the data to support it? These ideas to promote education are great but don't cut off valuable nurses from employment based on these criteria .

[Nonyvole, BSN, RN]

Good day, Nonyvole:

I don't count English nnn (101, 2xx, etc.) as being fluf. If you are paying 100% for your education, how much was that art class? Wouldn't a nice long walk once a day for the same time period of at art class offer just as much stress relief including other health benefits for free? If the world history class offers a non biased, non altered view, I agree its not a fluff class.

Well, outside of the theory that history is always written by the winners...

But my experiences mostly come from traditional students, the ones that are fresh from high school. While you and I may appreciate the chance to get outside for a walk, there are people that don't. That want to go get elbow-deep in clay, to play with yarn and dream of the day that they'll be able to afford that $30/skein sock yarn for a massive shawl. (And yes, that one is personal experience because there's something about a nice alpaca yarn.) But my art classes, which I took every semester up until my last one? It was rolled into the full-time student status that I had to pay for, since my nursing courses alone put me there. So why not use those unused four credits that I've already paid for and take something fluffy?

However, I do have to agree with LadyFree. Nobody is going to ask you to reject your personal beliefs, but from what you have posted in this thread, it feels like you don't want to study things that other people believe. Because you will come across patients that directly contract your beliefs, if you haven't already, and some of them can be incredibly in-your-face about it, to the point where you are having trouble gritting your teeth and staying polite. And having at least a basic understanding of their opinions and some of the reasoning behind it really will help you stay calm and respect where they may be coming from.

And RN4Justice - DNP programs are becoming the new thing for nurse practitioners. Doctor Nurse!

[Delicate Flower]

I also feel like the perceived value of the bedside nurse is declining. I'm taking about nurses at the bedside who are knowledgable and compassionate and provide excellent care day after day. Nurses with years -decades - of experience. It seems to me the value is placed squarely on leadership: charge nurse, "projects", committes, publication, education, management. Yes, all those things are important, but not every nurse needs to be running around publishing papers or aspiring to management.

I think the reason is that it's easier to measure the leadership checklist items. It's a lot harder to measure quality of bedside nursing. But everyone who has worked at the bedside knows that there are nurses who are just putting in their hours, and then there are nurses who BRING IT, every shift. Too bad those nurses can't just focus on their patients, if they want to be recognized or get move up the "clinical" ladder.

[rnrg]

The REAL difference is that the BSN graduated with much more DEBT, the MSN--whoa!!!-- WAY MORE DEBT.... and so on...

This is not just any debt--the perfect debt. No way out of it. Interest until you, or your children, or grandchildren die or finish paying it off at a MUCH higher price....

All I have to say?

I totally freaking concur. No way out. Government backed. Debt sentence for the REST OF MY LIFE. I dont know how the greater portion of America will ever repay the government. Its going to be the next economic crisis. And guess what. Im scared.

[pmabraham, BSN, RN]

Good day everyone:

First, thank you everyone who is posting for your patience, and willingness to share your points of view. LadyFree, maybe it is because I'm an introvert or maybe it is because of my age, but I do put others first and rarely share my personal beliefs and points of view unless directly asked. LadyFree and Nonyvole, you are correct that so far in my classes none of the teachers asked for a change in beliefs. Yet, there was the issue of dealing with the frustration of what amounted to busy work.

My point is that my wife and I are the ones paying for the classes. Not the government, not our parents, etc. Money doesn't come out of thin air. As rnrg shared there's a DEBT issue. Now, if I have the choice between spending $1,000 or more on an ART class plus ~$200 for the book plus ~$320 for gas plus 32 hours of travel time plus 48 hours of lecture time plus ~144 hours of study time vs. taking 30 minute walks five to seven days a week (for the 16 weeks) with the desire to be DEBT free, which path do you think I would take? If I am the type of person who appreciates others who can appreciate ART but has no desire (past, present, or future) to admire Art, participate in art, etc. what is there to gain by spending ~$1,520 plus 224 hours of lifetime compared to $0 and 56 hours of healthy walking? BTW, if one was working even a minimum wage job and you looked at the money lost for investing 224 hours (> $1,568) in an ART class now the real investment into taking the class is > $3,000. For what return on investment?

If one is already a compassionate person, do taking classes that are required for the BSN but have no proof of direct patient impact create compassion in a person or make an already compassionate person more compassionate? If one might work in a ER or trauma setting where there's no day to day bedside nursing with the same person over time (to develop a relationship), will such classes really assist?

One of the problems our country faces is the high cost of education. Maybe if there was a review of what's really needed for a BSx, and give more power to the students in terms of a broader range of class choice it would be different (not sure).

Thank you.

[bootsbug]

BSN is a 4 year degree, rather than an ADN which is a 2 year degree (not including the prereqs). The extra time it takes is considered a more advanced education, even though it mostly consists with random classes, such as liberal arts classes. I think it's an ego thing, too. Such as "Oh you only have a Masters? That's cute, I have a Ph. D." Oh, I guess that goes along with the advanced education.I am perfectly okay with graduating from an ADN program. Like you said, we pass they same exam to obtain our license anyways in the end.

Here in AZ, you get your BSN in 16 months to 20 months at a university, And the ADN in 24 months at community colleges..

[brandy1017, ASN, RN]

Good day everyone:

First, thank you everyone who is posting for your patience, and willingness to share your points of view. LadyFree, maybe it is because I'm an introvert or maybe it is because of my age, but I do put others first and rarely share my personal beliefs and points of view unless directly asked. LadyFree and Nonyvole, you are correct that so far in my classes none of the teachers asked for a change in beliefs. Yet, there was the issue of dealing with the frustration of what amounted to busy work.

My point is that my wife and I are the ones paying for the classes. Not the government, not our parents, etc. Money doesn't come out of thin air. As rnrg shared there's a DEBT issue. Now, if I have the choice between spending $1,000 or more on an ART class plus ~$200 for the book plus ~$320 for gas plus 32 hours of travel time plus 48 hours of lecture time plus ~144 hours of study time vs. taking 30 minute walks five to seven days a week (for the 16 weeks) with the desire to be DEBT free, which path do you think I would take? If I am the type of person who appreciates others who can appreciate ART but has no desire (past, present, or future) to admire Art, participate in art, etc. what is there to gain by spending ~$1,520 plus 224 hours of lifetime compared to $0 and 56 hours of healthy walking? BTW, if one was working even a minimum wage job and you looked at the money lost for investing 224 hours (> $1,568) in an ART class now the real investment into taking the class is > $3,000. For what return on investment?

If one is already a compassionate person, do taking classes that are required for the BSN but have no proof of direct patient impact create compassion in a person or make an already compassionate person more compassionate? If one might work in a ER or trauma setting where there's no day to day bedside nursing with the same person over time (to develop a relationship), will such classes really assist?

One of the problems our country faces is the high cost of education. Maybe if there was a review of what's really needed for a BSx, and give more power to the students in terms of a broader range of class choice it would be different (not sure).

Thank you.

Money is the bottom line! Education is pushed beyond reason. Education has been made into the cure all of all the social ills. If you're poor go to school and make something of yourself. The problem is that education costs money, lots of it and there is no guarantee that it will pay off in the end, but you will find yourself paying your student loans no matter what, even if it comes out of your social security and stays with you till you die!

Nurses make a living wage, but that doesn't mean that college debt isn't a problem. Nowadays I see nurses with $100,000 of debt. They will spend decades paying it off and that is if everything goes right in their life, no layoffs, injuries or sickness!

Browbeating people over the head to get a BSN no matter what the cost financially is wrong! People need to look at their total financial picture and can they really afford to go back to school. Not everyone can! Just because you were able to and found the money doesn't mean the next nurse can afford it!

Now more than ever when pensions are rare and we need to save for retirement, pay off the mortgage, car, etc common sense has to take a priority. It may be a dream for you to go back to school and get your BSN, but can you really afford it? A BSN is not a guarantee of a better job. Having a BSN won't necessarily protect you from being fired or laid off or getting ill or injured and not being able to work, but the student loans still have to be paid back! If school was free then going back to school would only involve sacrificing study time and more people would probably do it. The schools really don't give a damn how much debt you are in. All they care about is getting their hands on your tuition money, what happens to you isn't their problem!

[Nonyvole, BSN, RN]

Good day everyone:

First, thank you everyone who is posting for your patience, and willingness to share your points of view. LadyFree, maybe it is because I'm an introvert or maybe it is because of my age, but I do put others first and rarely share my personal beliefs and points of view unless directly asked. LadyFree and Nonyvole, you are correct that so far in my classes none of the teachers asked for a change in beliefs. Yet, there was the issue of dealing with the frustration of what amounted to busy work.

There's always busy work, there are always things that are designed to challenge our beliefs and teach us things that we don't think we want to know. My husband is obtaining his BS in IT right now, and is amazingly frustrated because he has to take a course on leadership. But he's doing it anyways. Same with a couple other classes that have no relation to the IT field that he had to take. And suddenly? He's able to talk with me about those classes and realize that hey, they really do have a take on his personal life...

And the minute that you find yourself with a teacher that says "change your beliefs or else," that's when you go to the head of the department. That's not teaching. But teachers that say "think about this alternative viewpoint" are open to people (politely) saying "no" or "I'll think about it, but I don't think anything will change." Part of teaching, especially at the modern collegiate level in the social sciences, is asking students to think about alternatives and be open to looking at things with a more clinical - and critical - viewpoint. To provide a safe environment for open debate.

If one is already a compassionate person, do taking classes that are required for the BSN but have no proof of direct patient impact create compassion in a person or make an already compassionate person more compassionate? If one might work in a ER or trauma setting where there's no day to day bedside nursing with the same person over time (to develop a relationship), will such classes really assist?

From somebody who has worked in emergency medicine, both in-hospital and pre-hospital, yes. I may not be able to develop a relationship over days with a single patient, but I have to be able to develop a near-instantaneous relationship with them. While I'm in the room, am I going to stay quiet? No. That's not a therapeutic relationship with most patients. I'm going to talk to them, educate them, and relate to them. That's where my fluff classes really come in and help me the most, because I can get my patient talking about what interests them, and put my teaching into terms that they'll understand. And I've found that if I can at least say a couple things about what interests my patient and what they do for work, they are much happier, even in the face of being in the ED and being handed a diagnosis that they really don't like. Because their nurse cared about them, enough to rummage through her brain and pull out a random scrap of knowledge that showed that she had focused on more than just nursing school at some point in her life. And in a completely random incident, the fact that I had had education on manners that have since been rejected in modern society? My patient went from flat out refusing to leave his chair to going to the hospital. All because I asked him to escort a young lady back to her vehicle. (Seriously. I held out my arm, asked him to walk me out to the ambulance, talked about something random and innocuous, and suddenly he's climbing in and getting settled on the stretcher. Everybody was shocked, considering how firm he had been in saying that no, he wasn't going.)

Compassion is something that is hard to teach; it has to really develop in a person. That comes from being human.

One of the problems our country faces is the high cost of education. Maybe if there was a review of what's really needed for a BSx, and give more power to the students in terms of a broader range of class choice it would be different (not sure).

I very much agree with you on the high cost of education, and I feel that it really is out of control. Would I have preferred to have attended a school where it was $5000 a semester, instead of $14000? Yes. Who wouldn't?

However, and once again I'm speaking from personal experience, I've seen students attempt to stand up for getting rid of the general education requirements and altering the graduation requirements. I've seen even more students tell them to be quiet, that they like the requirements and feel that they're getting something of value from all classes that they take, even if they have nothing at all to do with their major. It all comes down to personal opinion. Plus, if you look at the requirements of various schools, there are many that say that they want you to take a course at X level in Y subject. So if I needed to take an introductory course on religion, I had the option of taking a general studies course, one specifically on Judeo-Christian Religions, and one on Eastern Religions. How is that not providing students with options and an aspect of control over their education?

But please note. A lot of this is coming from schools that cater mostly to traditional students. The RN - BSN program at my alma mater? There are about 14 required non-nursing credits to meet the required 128 credits for graduation. Everybody in that particular program comes in with at least 76 credits that are automatically granted for holding an associates degree, 88 for a bachelors. The program itself is 38 credits. Those extra credits aren't because the school is out for more money or wants to take away options from students, they are because there are mandatory credit requirements that you find at any school out there that awards bachelors degrees. Some schools have more, a few schools have less, but it also depends on what they consider a credit.

And thank you for sharing your beliefs and opinions about higher education, especially as it applies to nursing. I've really had to dive into previous research that I've done on higher education in the United States. :)

(And this sort of give-and-take is what I'd hope to see in most classes like sociology, philosophy, even some psychology.)

[LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN]

Money is the bottom line! Education is pushed beyond reason. Education has been made into the cure all of all the social ills. If you're poor go to school and make something of yourself. The problem is that education costs money, lots of it and there is no guarantee that it will pay off in the end, but you will find yourself paying your student loans no matter what, even if it comes out of your social security and stays with you till you die!

Nurses make a living wage, but that doesn't mean that college debt isn't a problem. Nowadays I see nurses with $100,000 of debt. They will spend decades paying it off and that is if everything goes right in their life, no layoffs, injuries or sickness!

Browbeating people over the head to get a BSN no matter what the cost financially is wrong! People need to look at their total financial picture and can they really afford to go back to school. Not everyone can! Just because you were able to and found the money doesn't mean the next nurse can afford it!

Now more than ever when pensions are rare and we need to save for retirement, pay off the mortgage, car, etc common sense has to take a priority. It may be a dream for you to go back to school and get your BSN, but can you really afford it? A BSN is not a guarantee of a better job. Having a BSN won't necessarily protect you from being fired or laid off or getting ill or injured and not being able to work, but the student loans still have to be paid back! If school was free then going back to school would only involve sacrificing study time and more people would probably do it. The schools really don't give a damn how much debt you are in. All they care about is getting their hands on your tuition money, what happens to you isn't their problem!

Here's the thing; yes money has always been an issue, more so in many parts if society where higher education has been in teachable for decades; I have been a part of such a part of society; this is NOTHING NEW.

No job is safe; however, one must be able to be fluid and flexible to the changing times.

Not everyone gets a BSN straight out if high school; there are far more people that are taking the beaten path and are well informed enough to save money and take the classes that they need; some have need-based scholarships, some do whatever it takes; I was on a TWELVE year plan before I got my BSN, and before that was a CNA, and worked as an LPN; I did what it took to advance myself; I even self advised myself through CC and university to steer away unnescceary classes; that is what a prudent adult does for the benefit of education; I've had to come out of pocket 1000-2000 dollars a semester at CC to save myself money-my BSN cost 17 grand, which, per my income is NOTHING.

My take is people CAN be prudent enough to have the power to get a education for a reasonable price; many are doing the same thing; it all boils down to being, again, objective enough to make an informed, logical decision.