One of biggest mysteries I had after I started nursing was: BSN increases patient outcome. What? Just because I shoved up few more dollars into greedy university's rear, that makes me a better student? I used to think that I must be a badass and better than ADN because they are from community college (wooo), but find out, they take exactly same classes as we do, take the same test, and tadaa~ does exactly same things as we do; I met many ADNs and few of them being charge nurses, I didn't even know they were ADNs until they brought up the "I need to/am working on BSN right now." My unit auditor is ADN, and she is great! All BSN serves to me personally, is that it takes less time for me to achieve MSN, and that is it.
I have heard of the studies that show that BSN hospitals improves patient outcomes and resuscitation outcomes compared to ADN hospitals, etc but I can't help but doubt that. I'm a BSN but my degree does not upgrade my brain magically to remember the ACLS algorithm or to push epi better than the ADNs; it's really all experience and that's it. Is it a money thing for universities? Or was I lucky enough to work with only cool ADNs. Maybe someone has good explanation to this?
Speaking of "fluff" classes....ASU now offers a one-credit class for women (of course.....who seemingly fall for such silliness) if they forego shaving their underarms for a set period of time.
If you choose the ADN route, that's understandable. But if you choose not to get your BSN, don't whine when you find out your degree is being phased out with your employer or you don't have access to entry-level positions. The comparson to teacher's having to obtain a supposedly useless master's today doesn't hold water. Teachers have been asked to step up to the plate because their jobs are a LOT more complicated than they were 30 years ago. And they're making more money than ever with excellent retirement plans, etc. What's so wrong with that? Hasn't nursing changed as much? If you want to be left behind or relegated to only working in a rural facility where BSN's are scarce, then just get an ADN and stay there because that's the right thing for you. Just don't complain when you find out that the market is locking you our. That's all I ask.
Actually, I have complaints about education programs too.
"The wonderful thing about college is you can pick your classes to BENEFIT YOUR EDUCATION; so, you don't want "fluff", don't pick it-the student has ALL the power."
Yes, the power to pick between one fluff and another fluff. Personally, I would prefer a BSN program that was 100% directed towards an education that related to direct patient care. When my wife and I adopted our daughter as a teenager, her one younger brother was with us for a period of time. He enjoyed expanding his "reasonably well-rounded education" by reading a book with the title that literally had the words "useless information" in its name. While I don't fault anyone for wanting to gather information, just like with the book's title, not all knowlege or information is useful. Not all education is guaranteed to be well rounded. As a society we've come up with cliche's such as "well rounded education" to hide the fact that college prices continue to soar and become more and more unaffordable and rather than either trimming the fat (so to write) and getting rid of the fluff (making the fluff optional vs. required) to lower college costs, we are given the cliches of "well rounded" and made to believe vocational schools are less worthy.
Thank you.
As someone who HAD went though a vocational program, CC and university studies, best believe NONE of my education is FLUFF, and it had benefitted me in EVERY way. I chose my OWN classes without adviser input-BEST decision EVER, and has saved me TONS of money and time.
Have the power to pick between one fluff class and the next. Between an art 181 and art 182 and other classes that have no bearing on being further well rounded or patient safety. Want lower education prices, start by making certain classes optional.
Have the power to pick between one fluff class and the next. Between an art 181 and art 182 and other classes that have no bearing on being further well rounded or patient safety. Want lower education prices, start by making certain classes optional.
What power if I have a choice between one fluff class and another fluff class where the time comes out of me, and the money and resources from my wife and I? That's not power. Even if it was a matter of one needs x credits where y credits must be z nursing classes and the rest 100% completely up to you where there was a wide choice, then yes, that would be a level of good power. However, if the "rest" is 100% determined by the institution with what they and they alone believe will "round you out," then there's no real power, just expensive education.
What power if I have a choice between one fluff class and another fluff class where the time comes out of me, and the money and resources from my wife and I? That's not power. Even if it was a matter of one needs x credits where y credits must be z nursing classes and the rest 100% completely up to you where there was a wide choice, then yes, that would be a level of good power. However, if the "rest" is 100% determined by the institution with what they and they alone believe will "round you out," then there's no real power, just expensive education.
Thank you.
What one needs to realize is that a class in philosophy or health survey or sociology or hospital economics DOES help in a well rounded education and is beneficial to ones practice.
I have seen too many nurses and run roughshod in this business that take their personal beliefs and biases or not know the system structure or not even rise to educate theirselves in this business and HARM the patient rather than helping, and the powers that be ARE paying attention to it, now that pt outcomes are tied to reimbursement, and the focus is shifting towards Nursing being the forefront of favorable outcomes.
I've been in this business for almost 15 years and having the education about the WHY and how I can make changes due to the tools I chose in my education has helped me create policies, and be the change I seek in this profession and be able to contribute to better outcomes and help other generations of nurses appreciate and make their imprint; our patients DESERVE it; we may be in that bed someday, and I want a well-rounded, objective individual wanting to take care of me; I've had the unfortunate experience of having nurses take care of me with biases; as well as worked beside nurses that have done HARM by being set in those ways.
And don't be mistaken; I was a LPN for many years before I went for my BSN, I even dabbled in a ADN program prior to going the PN route, so I do know what it takes to keep building on education and broadening horizons; one needs to do so in order to be a leader in their own practice.
Take advantage of the education; whether it be while in college or a CEUs; be prepared, because you are certainly going to need it for your practice.
What one needs to realize is that a class in philosophy or health survey or sociology or hospital economics DOES help in a well rounded education and is beneficial to ones practice.
I have seen too many nurses and run roughshod in this business that take their personal beliefs and biases or not know the system structure or not even rise to educate theirselves in this business and HARM the patient rather than helping, and the powers that be ARE paying attention to it, now that pt outcomes are tied to reimbursement, and the focus is shifting towards Nursing being the forefront of favorable outcomes.
I've been in this business for almost 15 years and having the education about the WHY and how I can make changes due to the tools I chose in my education has helped me create policies, and be the change I seek in this profession and be able to contribute to better outcomes and help other generations of nurses appreciate and make their imprint; our patients DESERVE it; we may be in that bed someday, and I want a well-rounded, objective individual wanting to take care of me; I've had the unfortunate experience of having nurses take care of me with biases; as well as worked beside nurses that have done HARM by being set in those ways.
And don't be mistaken; I was a LPN for many years before I went for my BSN, I even dabbled in a ADN program prior to going the PN route, so I do know what it takes to keep building on education and broadening horizons; one needs to do so in order to be a leader in their own practice.
Take advantage of the education; whether it be while in college or a CEUs; be prepared, because you are certainly going to need it for your practice.
I don't know...I feel that those "fluff" classes have actually made me a stronger nurse. Why? Because they helped me develop my critical thinking skills, my ability to look at the whole and not just the sum of the parts.
I've talked with nursing professors and preceptors before, and their complaints can be summed up as such: Students don't take what they learn in one class and apply it to another, and they don't always think. That gerontology class? Forgotten about after the final. The diabetic with an elevated sugar? Oh, they're just non-compliant with diet and medications, never mind that they've got a massive infection. Oh, how to give a bed bath? That's what CNAs and patient care techs are for, not nurses.
Another benefit to some of those fluff classes? English 101 helps people catch up on writing skills, because yes, students enter college not knowing how to write in complete, logical sentences or without the use of text/chat speak. Art classes can offer stress relief, or a chance to get your hands dirty in a safe manner. World history? Take a look at how events in history helped to shape the field of nursing into what it has become today.
I don't count English nnn (101, 2xx, etc.) as being fluf. If you are paying 100% for your education, how much was that art class? Wouldn't a nice long walk once a day for the same time period of at art class offer just as much stress relief including other health benefits for free? If the world history class offers a non biased, non altered view, I agree its not a fluff class.
Good day, LadyFree:
While part of my AD route (I am planning on a BSN once an RN), I had to take a sociology class. I did take the class seriously (as I do all my classes whether I "into" the subject matter or not); the teacher shared with me after finals that I was the top performing student out of all of the classes she had that particular semester. While I did learn facets from the class I plan to take with me through the rest of my life (I'm age 51), there are particulars of the class that have and will continue to have zero value to me (for that to change, I would have to give up my faith in Jesus).
Now, as I do look into the BSN route (once an RN) my goal is to find an accredited economical path where I do have a level of power/control in the classes. I did research on the philosophy classes, and if I took that at the college I'm attending, I would have to write papers (I already communicated with the professor) on abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality, and other areas where I already know I stand (based on my faith in Jesus). Such education doesn't round me as my position doesn't change. I don't need an art class to reduce stress levels; as I shared with Nonyvole, I can and do go on walks for that.
In any event, I'm not debating the overall value of a BSN as I do plan to get one down the road; I just (personally) wish/hope that when the time comes I will be able to find an accredited institution that is economical where the student does have power/control. And the only way that happens if if the list of classes not related directly to patient care are long and wide enough so that I could take an English xxx, a science class, or any other class that I could actually use the information gained in whatever life I have left (with the understanding that in my opinion, not all information is useful or practical information).
While part of my AD route (I am planning on a BSN once an RN), I had to take a sociology class. I did take the class seriously (as I do all my classes whether I "into" the subject matter or not); the teacher shared with me after finals that I was the top performing student out of all of the classes she had that particular semester. While I did learn facets from the class I plan to take with me through the rest of my life (I'm age 51), there are particulars of the class that have and will continue to have zero value to me (for that to change, I would have to give up my faith in Jesus).
And that's the disconnect.
Learning those important particulars that have "zero value" to you have VALUE to your patients in this business; no one is saying to give up your faith ; however what you find when you get into nursing is the responsibility to put your personal values aside to prevent HARM to the pt; and to promote the well being for your pts and for your practice.
Now, as I do look into the BSN route (once an RN) my goal is to find an accredited economical path where I do have a level of power/control in the classes. I did research on the philosophy classes, and if I took that at the college I'm attending, I would have to write papers (I already communicated with the professor) on abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality, and other areas where I already know I stand (based on my faith in Jesus). Such education doesn't round me as my position doesn't change.
FYI, you may need to take Philosophy as a requirement for your BSN; again, these are pieces of looking at basic theory and subjects in an objective way; putting aside personal beliefs to look at subjects in an objective way is a part of what we do as nurses; having a general understanding will help hone your practice in the future.
In any event, I'm not debating the overall value of a BSN as I do plan to get one down the road; I just (personally) wish/hope that when the time comes I will be able to find an accredited institution that is economical where the student does have power/control. And the only way that happens if if the list of classes not related directly to patient care are long and wide enough so that I could take an English xxx, a science class, or any other class that I could actually use the information gained in whatever life I have left (with the understanding that in my opinion, not all information is useful or practical information).
Thank you.
I would also tread lightly on "not all information is useful or practical"; nursing is a HUGE gray area; you NEVER know what will come up in you practice where upon the chance of that information you had presented to you puts your behind on a platter.
Again, it comes down to objectivity in this business; you are early in your journey, but believe me, you will need it in order to excel and thrive in this business.
In talking to a nurse educator this week, she kept referring to "Diploma" and "BSN" nurses, apparently plunking ADNs right in there with the diploma. I am not a person who normally speaks up, but she kept doing it. I said: just FYI, ADNs of which I am one, do have a college degree. It's called an Associates Degree.
She apologized and then went on to talk about her experience at the bedside a couple of decades ago and said they always respected their ADNs and diploma nurses because they knew "HOW" to do things, while BSNs knew "WHY."
At this point my eyeballs were twitching and my face palm reflex was threatening to activate. I decided to keep my mouth shut because I knew she wasn't intentionally being disrespectful. But seriously: does anyone really think ADNs (I can't speak for diplomas because I didn't go that route) spend 2 years + learning motor skills and never learn anything deeper than that? No.
And the term "bachelor's prepared nurse" is irritating to me as well....I have a BS degree, an MS degree, and an ADN, but I am apparently NOT a bachelor's prepared nurse.
I get both sides of this argument. I understand why BSN nurses want validation for the extra time and money they spent completing their degree. To say that all RNs are equal takes away from those BSNs at the bedside.
ADNs and Diplomas are doing the same job for the most part at the bedside, and they don't want their knowledge and skills dismissed or minimized based on the education which of course did meet the requirements for the NCLEX and the job.
Then you have the 2nd career folks like me, and there are a lot of us. It's frustrating when valuable education and experience that you have amassed in your former career is dismissed because it's not the almighty BSN.
tntrn, ASN, RN
1,340 Posts
Speaking of "fluff" classes....ASU now offers a one-credit class for women (of course.....who seemingly fall for such silliness) if they forego shaving their underarms for a set period of time.