One of biggest mysteries I had after I started nursing was: BSN increases patient outcome. What? Just because I shoved up few more dollars into greedy university's rear, that makes me a better student? I used to think that I must be a badass and better than ADN because they are from community college (wooo), but find out, they take exactly same classes as we do, take the same test, and tadaa~ does exactly same things as we do; I met many ADNs and few of them being charge nurses, I didn't even know they were ADNs until they brought up the "I need to/am working on BSN right now." My unit auditor is ADN, and she is great! All BSN serves to me personally, is that it takes less time for me to achieve MSN, and that is it.
I have heard of the studies that show that BSN hospitals improves patient outcomes and resuscitation outcomes compared to ADN hospitals, etc but I can't help but doubt that. I'm a BSN but my degree does not upgrade my brain magically to remember the ACLS algorithm or to push epi better than the ADNs; it's really all experience and that's it. Is it a money thing for universities? Or was I lucky enough to work with only cool ADNs. Maybe someone has good explanation to this?
"Classes about evidence based practice, statistical analysis of empirical data, research methodology, community health, etc."
Sadly, statistics are easily manipulated to prove a point without being factual for real end results. Several BSN schools in our area include art as part of the BSN program. ART... yes, that will really help with clinical patient outcomes right along with a number of other classes which have no practical application in healthcare.
My plan is to get a BSN, but I'm not happy about the outright fluff put in that has zero to do with direct patient outcomes yet costs hard earned money, time, and other resources from one's pocket. Even if another party was footing the bill, it would not change anything - worthless fluff is worthless fluff.
EVERY major in college requires those "fluff" courses not related to their major. A bachelor's is not a trade school degree. It's supposed to mean that the graduate has attained a GENERAL education. If you don't think a general education is important, it doesn't say anything flattering about you. If you just want to drift on the trends instead of using them to you advantage, go right ahead and deny yourself the benefits of a college education. There's tens of thousands of people who would be downright grateful to have that opportunity. Nursing is not just a psychomotor task. If you believe that it is, then be prepared to whittled down to that definition by administrators who will treat you like a tradesperson rather than a professional.
"If you don't think a general education is important, it doesn't say anything flattering about you." Very childish.
General education is overrated and should be removed from the curriculum. A three year BSN program with information about nursing would be far more beneficial than requiring students to take extra classes like Drawing 101 or Astronomy 101. When I was reading about three year bachelor programs because a local state university was attempting to offer them, I was surprised. There were estimates that it could shave 15,000 dollars off the attendance and even more if the person had a dorm room.
The crux of the matter lies in the extra courses that more letters behind the initials "RN" require you to take. Classes about evidence based practice, statistical analysis of empirical data, research methodology, community health, etc. If you took those in your ADN program, it probably was not an entire year or perhaps more devoted to the topic, but rather an exposure to the subject matter.
Those extra classes ARE helpful.
In my areas, BSN schools do not have an entire year devoted to those topics. They were semester-length classes like they are in our ADN program. They changed it and made it so the ADN students had to take the same stats required by the other schools for entrance to their RN programs. Maybe I had an excellent ADN program, who knows.
think most people resent paying an exorbitant amount of money for those "fluff" classes; most of those fluff classes really should have been taught in high school. I had to read Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery" in high school, then in English 101 in college, then AGAIN in English 102 in college! Come on now. I paid for this. Really? I would rather have paid for classes that would actually help me in my career. We have priced our students right out of an education. I personally love literature, but I studied Blake in high school, and should not have had to pay to study him again. The various histories should be taught in high school. I think if we didn't have to go deeply in debt just to have an education, we would not be having this conversation. A well-rounded education is great, I am all for it, but not if the average working person has to graduate owing thousands of dollars.
I agree with this. I actually started taking classes at sixteen at an excellent university. I love taking classes to better myself however I view it as a hobby. I can afford it since I don't have kids. However, other classmates should not be forced to take general education credits to add to their school debt and loans. Very few people can graduate without school loans. I love learning new things which is why I look into get certifications. Forcing others to do the same is not right though.
One argument brought up is about money. In all honesty, I see competition as the best way to increase the wages along with increasing the men in the occupation. It is sad, but occupations with more men in them do pay better. In my area, competition between hospital corporations are what kept the wages higher. When one offered 20 bucks for the new grad residency and the other offered 24.80 for all new grads, the one with the new grad residency upped their wages to 25 while the other offered 24.80 dropped theirs to 21. It took six months before the other one raised it back to 24.80. The university hospital paid 20.98 but they upped there's to 23 recently.
ADN? BSN? Direct-entry MSN? All are RNs and all get paid the same in my area because they do the same job. If they have experience, that's a different story.
Specializes in Cardiac, ER, Pediatrics, Corrections.
The one thing I will say, our BSN program had 3 years of clinicals AND a 120 hour preceptorship we did independently. None of the ADN schools in my area came close to our clinical hours. Don't go down my throat, not saying anyone is better than the other, but stating a fact.
If all BSN schools were the same as yours; unfortunately that's not the case and you do have BSN schools with requirements for what amount to fluff classes from the standpoint the class(es) in question cannot be proven to provide any benefit towards increasing patient safety.
People who don't want to take "'fluff' courses" that aren't directly related to nursing skills are welcome to go to tech/voc schools. That's what you are looking for, technical/vocational education. A baccalaureate degree in nursing involves all the same general education requirements as every other baccalaureate degree offered by the university. The point of the degree is not just to cover a set amount of nursing content; it is also to provide a general, reasonably well-rounded education. The art majors have to also take history, not just art courses. The chemistry majors also have to take literature, not just chemistry courses. Etc., etc., etc. If you don't want a baccalaureate degree, fine. I have no problem with that. But what's the point of complaining because the BSN programs include standard baccalaureate requirements?
Specializes in Cardiac, ER, Pediatrics, Corrections.
I only had to take one art class. I do love art so I didn't mind. All my other classes I felt were beneficial to nursing. I took a cultural geography class and I learned so much on the health practices of other cultures. It was worth gold! psychology was helpful in understanding the Erickson and Freud theories with development. Chemistry is obvious. Stats really helped me with my nursing research course. Religion helped me to understand fasting times, diets, and beliefs on health of other cultures. Ours required nutrition as wall which was great when learning special diets for patients. I feel I am lucky in the fact I didn't have a lot of fluff that didn't pertain to nursing whatsoever. I really made the most of my general education courses. Our school had a very structured program to make sure our gen eds related to nursing SOMEHOW. Honestly, art was the only class I couldn't relate nursing to. Haha...maybe if I really stretched and tried. I do realize not all BSN programs were like mine, but I wish they were! 3 years of clinicals and not too much unnecessary fluff made for a great experience!
People who don't want to take "'fluff' courses" that aren't directly related to nursing skills are welcome to go to tech/voc schools. That's what you are looking for, technical/vocational education. A baccalaureate degree in nursing involves all the same general education requirements as every other baccalaureate degree offered by the university. The point of the degree is not just to cover a set amount of nursing content; it is also to provide a general, reasonably well-rounded education. The art majors have to also take history, not just art courses. The chemistry majors also have to take literature, not just chemistry courses. Etc., etc., etc. If you don't want a baccalaureate degree, fine. I have no problem with that. But what's the point of complaining because the BSN programs include standard baccalaureate requirements?
Do you think that the reason why we keep the general education credits in the BSN programs because that's the way the US did it for years? Imagine how many jobs would be let go if they did not require other majors to do the general education credits. It would be good for the student but not good for the schools. I am all for an overhaul of the education system and change it so that a chemistry major would not need to take British Literature I unless he or she chooses to do so.
I also support changing the high school system and moving towards a European model for that.
The point of this is to get more people to think about the way universities are set up and whether it is truly the best model. A lot of people do not stop and think about why something is the way it is. They will say that the nursing graduates before me did it this way and the chemistry majors do it this way and the art history majors do it this way so it has to be this way. Does it really?
"If you don't think a general education is important, it doesn't say anything flattering about you." Very childish.
One argument brought up is about money. In all honesty, I see competition as the best way to increase the wages along with increasing the men in the occupation. It is sad, but occupations with more men in them do pay better. In my area, competition between hospital corporations are what kept the wages higher. When one offered 20 bucks for the new grad residency and the other offered 24.80 for all new grads, the one with the new grad residency upped their wages to 25 while the other offered 24.80 dropped theirs to 21. It took six months before the other one raised it back to 24.80. The university hospital paid 20.98 but they upped there's to 23 recently.
ADN? BSN? Direct-entry MSN? All are RNs and all get paid the same in my area because they do the same job. If they have experience, that's a different story.
Interesting that the university hospital actually paid the lowest of all the hospitals. So much for paying a BSN what they are worth! I agree competition makes more of a difference than education and of course a strong union! The hospitals with good unions have better pay and benefits hands down!
Well, I think the university hospital is union whereas the non-union hospitals pay more. However the university hospital has better and cheaper benefits so it kind of evens out. From what I have heard whispered in break rooms when unhappy people talk, the university hospital has a lot better retirement plan than either system but I do not know personally. They are considered state employees. Oh and people can get up to 8 credit hours free each semester if they go to the university along with reduced or free (forget which) tuition for their children.
I only had to take one art class. I do love art so I didn't mind. All my other classes I felt were beneficial to nursing. I took a cultural geography class and I learned so much on the health practices of other cultures. It was worth gold! psychology was helpful in understanding the Erickson and Freud theories with development. Chemistry is obvious. Stats really helped me with my nursing research course. Religion helped me to understand fasting times, diets, and beliefs on health of other cultures. Ours required nutrition as wall which was great when learning special diets for patients. I feel I am lucky in the fact I didn't have a lot of fluff that didn't pertain to nursing whatsoever. I really made the most of my general education courses. Our school had a very structured program to make sure our gen eds related to nursing SOMEHOW. Honestly, art was the only class I couldn't relate nursing to. Haha...maybe if I really stretched and tried. I do realize not all BSN programs were like mine, but I wish they were! 3 years of clinicals and not too much unnecessary fluff made for a great experience!
I didn't take art; but I agree; my general ed classes were tailored to benefit nursing.
The wonderful thing about college is you can pick your classes to BENEFIT YOUR EDUCATION; so, you don't want "fluff", don't pick it-the student has ALL the power.
If you choose the ADN route, that's understandable. But if you choose not to get your BSN, don't whine when you find out your degree is being phased out with your employer or you don't have access to entry-level positions. The comparson to teacher's having to obtain a supposedly useless master's today doesn't hold water. Teachers have been asked to step up to the plate because their jobs are a LOT more complicated than they were 30 years ago. And they're making more money than ever with excellent retirement plans, etc. What's so wrong with that? Hasn't nursing changed as much? If you want to be left behind or relegated to only working in a rural facility where BSN's are scarce, then just get an ADN and stay there because that's the right thing for you. Just don't complain when you find out that the market is locking you our. That's all I ask.
"The wonderful thing about college is you can pick your classes to BENEFIT YOUR EDUCATION; so, you don't want "fluff", don't pick it-the student has ALL the power."
Yes, the power to pick between one fluff and another fluff. Personally, I would prefer a BSN program that was 100% directed towards an education that related to direct patient care. When my wife and I adopted our daughter as a teenager, her one younger brother was with us for a period of time. He enjoyed expanding his "reasonably well-rounded education" by reading a book with the title that literally had the words "useless information" in its name. While I don't fault anyone for wanting to gather information, just like with the book's title, not all knowlege or information is useful. Not all education is guaranteed to be well rounded. As a society we've come up with cliche's such as "well rounded education" to hide the fact that college prices continue to soar and become more and more unaffordable and rather than either trimming the fat (so to write) and getting rid of the fluff (making the fluff optional vs. required) to lower college costs, we are given the cliches of "well rounded" and made to believe vocational schools are less worthy.
All my other classes I felt were beneficial to nursing. I took a cultural geography class and I learned so much on the health practices of other cultures. It was worth gold! psychology was helpful in understanding the Erickson and Freud theories with development. Chemistry is obvious. Stats really helped me with my nursing research course. Religion helped me to understand fasting times, diets, and beliefs on health of other cultures. Ours required nutrition as wall which was great when learning special diets for patients. I feel I am lucky in the fact I didn't have a lot of fluff that didn't pertain to nursing whatsoever. I really made the most of my general education courses. Our school had a very structured program to make sure our gen eds related to nursing SOMEHOW. Honestly, art was the only class I couldn't relate nursing to. Haha...maybe if I really stretched and tried. 
I do realize not all BSN programs were like mine, but I wish they were! 3 years of clinicals and not too much unnecessary fluff made for a great experience!
pmabraham, BSN, RN
1 Article; 2,568 Posts
Good day:
"Classes about evidence based practice, statistical analysis of empirical data, research methodology, community health, etc."
Sadly, statistics are easily manipulated to prove a point without being factual for real end results. Several BSN schools in our area include art as part of the BSN program. ART... yes, that will really help with clinical patient outcomes right along with a number of other classes which have no practical application in healthcare.
My plan is to get a BSN, but I'm not happy about the outright fluff put in that has zero to do with direct patient outcomes yet costs hard earned money, time, and other resources from one's pocket. Even if another party was footing the bill, it would not change anything - worthless fluff is worthless fluff.
Thank you.