A Different Approach to the ADN vs. BSN Debate

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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Over and over again, we read the same things on these threads. Pay BSN's more at the bedside, and mandate a BSN for all entry level nurses. There is widespread assumption that a BSN mandate would limit the labor supply even further and increase nursing wages.

I'm not sure that would actually happen but, for the sake of argument, let's assume that it would. Ok: so now you're making more money but, since I live in California where we have mandated staffing ratios ... it got me thinking. What's going to happen in the other 49 states where you don't have ratio laws? Isn't it possible that with a more limited labor pool the hospitals would give you even more unreasonable patient loads at the bedside than you have now?

A BSN mandate could very well limit supply and increase wages but it does nothing to improve working conditions. This is where, IMO, a ratio law is a better alternative because it does both. While a ratio law doesn't limit the supply, it does increase the demand and wages by limiting the number of assigned patients to each RN and forcing the hospitals to create more nursing positions.

Plus, it has the added benefit of making your life a hellava lot easier at the bedside which a BSN mandate doesn't do. By limiting supply even further, a BSN mandate could very well thwart attempts to mandate ratios in other states if there aren't enough nurses to staff mandated ratios.

Now ... this may not satisfy BSN nurses who want more consideration for your degrees but, this is where I don't understand you guys. I'm a recent ADN grad and I'll be spending the next two years working on my BSN. You BSN nurses are already way ahead of me.

You definitely qualify for more jobs than I do. There are, at least, some jobs where you can make more money than me at the bedside and, there are other jobs where your BSN counts as additional experience, etc. for promotion. In my area, at least, the BSN career opportunities are tremendous because there aren't that many BSN nurses to begin with. You're also way ahead of me in getting your master's, which increases your job prospects even further.

I see plenty of benefits with the BSN as it is. If I didn't ... I wouldn't bother with the time and expense of furthering my education.

And I wonder if any of the BSN nurses have considered the flip side of all of this? If everyone had a BSN then, everyone would also qualify for those other job opportunities that only you qualify for now. For nurses who don't want to work at the bedside, you already have a huge advantage over the rest of us.

Do you really want every nurse to qualify for the jobs that only you qualify for now? In some ways, this could actually be detrimental to BSN nurses who, IMO, have a huge advantage over the rest of us as it is.

As the old saying goes ... be careful what you wish for.

Just some food for thought.

:typing

Specializes in MPCU.

Thank you. I still feel it's unnecessary. Probably useful. Of course, they once felt that classical Latin was necessary to a well rounded education.

I agree with the concept of BSN as entry level. I simply feel that the goal can be accomplished by making the transitions easier. Once the workforce is mostly BSN, then legislation may be practical.

Paying BSN's more is an attractive idea, but unrealistic. Those extra skills we're learning should enable us to be more effective negotiators or in a better position to negotiate. Unless, the BSN really is not that important or respected.

Specializes in MDS RNAC, LTC, Psych, LTAC.
The clinical hours in an RN to BSN bridge are typically not the same clinical hours as ADN. They are hours in community health, managment, working with a nurse practioner doing assessments, a free clinic, a shelter for homeless teens, and teaching projects, shawdowing a director or VP of nursing, interviews, for examples. NLN approved RN to BSN programs have to have a clinical component. But it's definately not med-surg clinical type hours that you get in your ADN programs.

Tweety,

I guess my ADN program in Mo. was strange because in our clinicals we did job shadow a nurse practioner, we did community type nursing at a local health dept and some at psychiatric facilities , thats what turned me on to psych.

We had to do teaching projects and teach our own classmates the topic we researched and were graded on it. I even had two research papers to turn in during my core nursing classes... I saw also an earlier poster said ADN degrees don't have over 30 hours of core nursing classes with NURS on the front we had 64 all together over 2 years and thats not counting pre reqs. At my college we were the only associate of science degree besides pre engineering everything else there including biology etc was associate of arts. So when I go back I won't be too scared I have already done alot of those things.

Sad thing is we all take the same NCLEX so what does it matter.. Nursing to me is you get out of your education what you put in it regardless of type. But alot of advanced positions do require a BSN and I want to finish mine to look good on paper but that BSN will have nothing to do I feel with my skill set as the amount of years I have been an RN that you learn out in the real world of nursing not school in my opinion. I just know we need more nurses thats the real problem in our profession.

Specializes in Obstetrics & Gynecology,Medical/Surgical.

I currently hold two bachelor's degrees, and will have my ADN in December. I hardly think I will enter the field uneducated and naive. One of the local RN-BSN programs in my state is only another 26 hours. I don't think that additional 26 hours is going to somehow make me a better nurse than I will be with my ADN.

And get this...if all goes as planned and I get accepted, I plan on going for my Masters in Nurse Anesthesia in a few years. The particular program I am eyeing doesn't even require a BSN...an applicant just has to have any bachelor's degree, BUT this program requires two years of nursing experience before you can be admitted. So I'm going to skip getting the BSN altogether, and go straight for that Masters! :roll

Specializes in PEDS ~ PP ~ NNB & LII Nursery.
They are hours in community health, managment, working with a nurse practioner doing assessments, a free clinic, a shelter for homeless teens, and teaching projects, shawdowing a director or VP of nursing, interviews, for examples.

I did clinical hours in these exact things in my ADN program + some.

We also had to do a community project (actually 2) that were quite extensive as well as our capstone. I am now working in the town that our nursing BSN program is and the students are in their final semester clinical on our unit. I have seen some of their "senior" presentations (which are similar to our capstone) and to be honest, ours (my classes) were more in depth and advanced in comparison. Strange...

rags

Specializes in PEDS ~ PP ~ NNB & LII Nursery.

If I had needed to attend a 4 year program at the university I would not have become a nurse. It was not a matter of "fulfilling my desire" that made the difference for me. Being a mother of 3, 18 years of Marriage and age 37, relocation was simply NOT an option. Lazy... had nothing to do with it! I would say that for 90% of my classmates the same would be true. I honestly think the poster that made that statement owes some an apology.

My instructor was a bedside hospital nurse for 10 years with her ADN before deciding to teach nursing. She worked as a cardiac nurse in a specialty hospital and in ICU. She went on from her ADN degree and got her BS then onto her MSN. Her BS and MSN... ~ Community Nursing (specialty that was never used in her career). She laughed at the idea that a higher nursing degree made you a "better, more knowledgeable or more intelligent" nurse. She said, and I quote, "Anyone can write more papers and do more presentations and it WON'T make you a better nurse!" With this statement, she also encouraged us to go on and get our BS's, not to increase our nursing knowledge base (which she felt come from experience), but to increase our job opportunities in the future to advanced positions.

Where I work, there is no difference on our name tags. We are ALL RN's. I graduated in the same month and was hired onto my current unit and position with 2 other graduate nurses that graduated from the 4 year program in our state. I have since then noticed no difference in our experience or our nursing knowledge. We all seem to be very green and learning at a similar pace.

I find any RN (no matter the degree) to be a more proficient nurse if they have gone on to 'specialize' and 'certify' in their desired area of nursing. I think that is where the emphasis should be placed.

BTW ~ my '2 year' ADN took me 3 1/2 years with micro, bio, A&P and Psyc (to name a few) not being counted in the nursing program but required to be considered for it. After 56 credit hours and 3 semesters I was "restarted" as a freshman student when I began the actual nursing program.

rags

Specializes in Not enough space here....................

I'm a 16 year veteran nurse. I started out my nursing life by being the least skilled person on the rung of degrees. I was a nursing assistant - and not even a certified one at that! I graduated with my LPN in the Midwest in 91. Years later I graduated with my ADN, RN. I'm now three classes away from earning my BSN.

My personal motivation for earning my LPN was that I felt I could earn more money and take better care of my patients.

My personal motivation for earning my RN was so that I could earn more money and take better care of my patients.

My personal motivation to earn my BSN was so that I could earn more money.

Unless I am extremely enlightened in three classes....I will probably be more prepared to run an organization so that others will be able to take better care of the patients.

Specializes in PEDS ~ PP ~ NNB & LII Nursery.
Unless I am extremely enlightened in three classes....I will probably be more prepared to run an organization so that others will be able to take better care of the patients.

:yeah:

I am getting ready to graduate from an ADN program and I feel that I have a strong enough education base to work competently as a RN. I also know people who have completed a BSN program and not even be able to pass the NCLEX; it just goes to show, it's not the level of education a person, but the amount of passion they hold. It is my opinion that an ADN is just as qualified to be a RN. I do believe an ADN should eventually further their education since the world is an ever changing place and there is nothing wrong with gaining more knowledge. But to say an ADN is not qualified is being very biased. We have a full two years of clinical experience which coincides with the lecture content being taught. In regards to my program, they have a 98% pass rate with the NCLEX and the NCLEX sets the standards to practice nursing safely and competently. If they felt ADN programs were inferior, they would no longer offer them.

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.
Tweety,

I guess my ADN program in Mo. was strange because in our clinicals we did job shadow a nurse practioner, we did community type nursing at a local health dept and some at psychiatric facilities , thats what turned me on to psych.

We had to do teaching projects and teach our own classmates the topic we researched and were graded on it. I even had two research papers to turn in during my core nursing classes... I saw also an earlier poster said ADN degrees don't have over 30 hours of core nursing classes with NURS on the front we had 64 all together over 2 years and thats not counting pre reqs. At my college we were the only associate of science degree besides pre engineering everything else there including biology etc was associate of arts. So when I go back I won't be too scared I have already done alot of those things.

Sad thing is we all take the same NCLEX so what does it matter.. Nursing to me is you get out of your education what you put in it regardless of type. But alot of advanced positions do require a BSN and I want to finish mine to look good on paper but that BSN will have nothing to do I feel with my skill set as the amount of years I have been an RN that you learn out in the real world of nursing not school in my opinion. I just know we need more nurses thats the real problem in our profession.

All ADNs have a pysch component..

You do highlight something llg posted earlier that it's outrageous that ADN nurses have all these added extras and pre-reqs etc and come out with an ADN.

Mine was a different approach. We had hands on care from the first clinical and we took care of some very critical patients through out my two years. We had a year and a half of pre reqs and two years of nursing classes. We have more than thirty hours of theory and well over that for clinical experience. I do have to agree with you, it's what you take out of your educational experience. Also, there is a lot of on the job training...I feel it is very arrogant to believe a student has learned everything they need to know in nursing school regardless if it's a BSN or an ADN; it takes years master, not just a couple of years of nursing school. My school also hit on all of the subjects a BSN did except leadership and we kind of did that with our community nursing clinical. We were basically on our own in the community. I really hope people who think ADN's are not as qualified realize how much work is required of the ADN program. I had to take the same pre req's as a BSN minus statistics and organic chemistry. So I do feel my program has successfully trained me for an entry level RN position.

But to say an ADN is not qualified is being very biased.

I don't think anyone is arguing that ADNs aren't qualified. The argument for BSN has more to do with being given credit for one's abilities. Almost no professional "needs" a college degree. That is, they could learn the relevant skills without taking the gen ed courses or upper division related electives. Lawyers, engineers, doctors, etc. Still, those professionals are generally expected to have college degrees. Earning a college degree is a sort of proof of one's ability to apply themselves intellectually. Thus, the tendency is to assume that nursing doesn't require a college degree because it's "not that difficult." We know that's not the case, but to the uninitiated, it can look like that.

Specializes in Critical Care.
All ADNs have a pysch component..

You do highlight something llg posted earlier that it's outrageous that ADN nurses have all these added extras and pre-reqs etc and come out with an ADN.

The thing is, I don't think many ADN nurses come out of their programs and think, "Wow. I finally have an ASSOCIATE'S DEGREE; I'm educated now!"

I think the thinking falls more along the lines of, "I'm now an RN!"

While I might agree with the sentiment, it's not about getting an ADN; it's about getting the RN. I do agree that the programs should be fully articulated with a national model - ADN leads to BSN with a fully defined bridge to BSN.

It might be much more work then a typical assoc degree to become an RN but the goal is certainly the RN and not necessary the accomplishment of an AD. The difference is as real as the salary differences between a typical AD and being an RN.

~faith,

Timothy.

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