Rant About Covid Antivaxxers

[SunDazed]

We have all dealt with chronic care patients who keep coming back to the hospital because they have COPD and refuse to stop smoking, have CHF but can't be bothered to be compliant with their medications, or they are ESRD but they won't change their lifestyle, yet expect to be rescued whenever they eat a bucket of chicken while drinking a case of soda but can't make their dialysis appointment.

A more experienced nurse told me in my first two years of nursing that she thought 20% of the population used 80% of hospital and healthcare resources. I admit my dentist has used every tactic to try to get me to floss daily... what can I say? Some habits are best learned when very young - I just can't get it done. That point being, that even intelligent people (me...LOL) can't always be made to follow a long term treatment plan if the risk of not following it, doesn't feel real. 

Covid antivaxxers... I am sorry to say I am all dystopian fantasy about this. It is all those chronic illness frustrations rolled into risk of death in the fast lane scenario. I am nearly radicalized. I think that anyone who refuses to mask, get vaccinated, wash their hands while propagating myths about fake news should be required to get a special tattoo.  

Then when they show up in the ED with Covid symptoms, and test positive... we ask to see the spot where the tattoo is mandated to be placed. When it proves they are fake news antivaxxers... they are escorted out of the hospital by a team in space suits to "the fairgrounds". The fairgrounds has a fence and armed guards and plenty of organic food, water, shelter, sleeping arrangements.... no phones, no computers, no Fox News, no radio.... make them be inside their own heads. Have them reassure each other it isn't real until those around them die.  If they actually survive and can agree to be vaccinated before being released... then they can be released. 

My county is full of fake news people. We have a vaccination rate of 49% county wide. Covid admissions are up in the region and at our hospital. We don't have that big of a hospital. Having 8-11 Covid cases is a lot for us. 2 of the 12 ICU beds and the nurses caring for them is a lot. 

You don't believe Covid is real? Then we will allow you to continue with your thoughts and beliefs when you contract it, you will battle it alone at "the fairgrounds". Yes visitors are welcome... but if they enter, they cannot leave. 

Seriously... we need the right to refuse to serve those who threaten our lives and families. They expect to be saved? Darwinian ideas full scale. We are only interfering with it when we try to save these idiots.

I said it was a rant... whew... 

[macawake, MSN]

6 hours ago, Juanito said:

The unvaccinated should have their own hospital with unvaccinated providers who were fired from other places.  Put them together and let them take care of each other.

I like this. I also want this hospital to be located on the opposite side of a very high mountain range from my own location. Preferrably a high mountain range with permanently closed passes due to year-round, heavy snowfall with no flights available between the two locations. 

As I’ve mentioned earlier, I think that all human beings should have access to healthcare. Even those who make detrimental health choices. But I do not want people who are eligible to be vaccinated, have had the chance to get vaccinated, who do not have a medical contraindication and have chosen not to get vaccinated, anywhere near me or any person I care about. They are free to endanger themselves, but they aren’t free to endanger others. 

It makes sense to me that those who have chosen not to vaccinate should feel at ease around others who have made the same choice. I assume they made the choice understanding the risks, so it’s only fair that they assume the increased risk that came with their decision. 
 

[macawake, MSN]

On 8/6/2021 at 5:08 PM, chare said:

What, in your opinion, is the correct term?

Don’t you think that likely varies from person to person? I don’t think everyone posting is motivated by the exact same feelings or thought processes. But I agree with previous posters, I don’t think hate is a common motivator. I suspect anger and/or frustration are much more common. Perhaps sadness and frustration?

I read this today and I suspect it resonates with many healthcare professionals.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-nurses-covid-19-grief-pours-out-online-I-just-don't-want-watch-anyone-else-die-2021-08-06/

[Juanito, BSN, MSN]

25 minutes ago, chare said:

What, in your opinion, is the correct term?

As I stated earlier, ANGRY. I am angry with them.  As for my willingly unvaccinated family members, I am angry, disappointed and afraid for them.  More afraid for my daughter and the most vulnerable amongst us. 

[macawake, MSN]

4 hours ago, DaveICURN said:

Hate not your "antivax" brother or sister. But be understanding of their concern. Sit and talk with them. Attack not their character, but reason with their logic. If education is not something to be attained, then talk of better things and wish them well. They have made a choice. 

I don’t hate them. But I do find them problematic. Because deciding to not get vaccinated, doesn’t only impact them, but the society that they are a part of. 

I wish it was as simple as to reason with their logic. But resistance against getting a Covid vaccine is so often based on emotion, not logic. And emotion can be quite hard to reason with, even when you provide factual data and information. 
 

4 hours ago, DaveICURN said:

All these ideas and choices are yours and yours alone to make. You may decide what to do, what to say, and what to decide for your self. This is the benefit of living in the best nation on God's green Earth. We have freedoms unbound and protected. But that does come at a price. The price of pride and vanity. Of unbridled ignorance and brilliance. Of extremes to both ends of all spectrums. And we cater to it all. We cherish it all, relish it, swim in the vastness of it all and thrive. 

This might be a language issue (as you can probably tell, I’m not a native English speaker), but do you really think that unbridled ignorance is or should be, cherished and relished? I understand that having to accept it, is part and parcel of belonging to the human race. But cherishing it? 

You don’t have completely unbound freedoms. There are many things you aren’t allowed to do to another person. You have laws. And I would argue, that beyond the defined legal constraints imposed on our behavior, we also have a moral obligation to not hurt or endanger each other. 


Edited to add a question.

At the risk of going somewhat off-topic, as a European I’m always a tad bemused when Americans say that their country is the best on earth. I’ve lived in the U.S. and I enjoyed my years there. But there are many other great countries around the globe with equal freedoms, prosperity and perceived quality of life. Actually higher or more in some cases. I understand being proud of ones country, but what is it that makes you feel that the U.S. places in the unique category of #1 out of all the world’s countries? 

[guest1163268]

4 hours ago, DaveICURN said:

     It's hard. It's hard to care for the patients who die. It's hard to learn their names, their families names, their dogs names and watch their lungs fill with the slow march of covid. That creeping feeling that has been described o me time and time again as "Can't catch my breath". We would prone, and that would offer some relief... for a time. Then it was inevitable, they would need The Tube. 

      At first (2020) we did not think much of it. A few days/week on the vent, extubate then they would be fine. Death after Death after Death. Fly the patient to a higher level of care? Only if they were under the age of 40, and in perfect health other than covid. And then? Barotrauma. Chest tubes for collapsed lungs in flight. We had more deaths in the the fall and Winter 2020 than my previous 6 years of ICU combined. New hire? Well here's your vent, and your post mortem care for checkoff tonight. Awful. 

  And then, a glow on the horizon. Vaccines. They had been developed in record time, in various formats, and were going to be on shelves by Spring 2021. But then, as all things do, it became political. Everyone claimed credit, and everyone pointed blame. Everyone wanting to test alternative treatments is now "Alt right conspiracy theorists" and every vaccine supporter is a "Liberal Sheep". 

   So what do we do as people? We networked and boosted the signal. We struck out against those we disagreed with on a moral level, and went for the throat. We call for tattoos and camps for the unvaccinated! And believe ourselves justified due to our moral superiority. "But it's just how I feel". Yes, yes it is. And if enough people feel the same what do we do? We network and boost the signal.

   "But the vaccine is not yet approved by the FDA! We don't know that long term side effects! They're putting microchips into my body!" "I don't need a vaccine, I'm young and healthy and MY KIDS will not take one."

  Yeah, it's not fully approved. And you're right, we don't know the long term side effects. You may be healthy enough to overcome the worst of the viral illness. And you are the ultimate decider of what goes into your and your children's body.

  All these ideas and choices are yours and yours alone to make. You may decide what to do, what to say, and what to decide for your self. This is the benefit of living in the best nation on God's green Earth. We have freedoms unbound and protected. But that does come at a price. The price of pride and vanity. Of unbridled ignorance and brilliance. Of extremes to both ends of all spectrums. And we cater to it all. We cherish it all, relish it, swim in the vastness of it all and thrive. 

  Hate not your "antivax" brother or sister. But be understanding of their concern. Sit and talk with them. Attack not their character, but reason with their logic. If education is not something to be attained, then talk of better things and wish them well. They have made a choice. 

 

You have the freedom to be disappointed in Their choice. 

 

Thank You.

All of those things, yeah ???, BUT, 

Look I'm in Psych and I'm pretty good at it especially re big picture which very few people seem able to do. 

Perspective is almost an OS re behavior! 

Mental illness problems are forgivable because of circumstances beyond their control! 

Non Vaxxers possess a mind set that bleeds into so many areas of their lives! 

You frequently find that they are also likely to be religious and right wingers with racist, anti LGBTQ and misogynistic tendencies(anti Semitic, Latinos, Blacks, Asian etc). They are closed minded and motivated with latent or even underlying anger issues. Serious control issues with very little critical thinking possibilities to bleed the frustrations. (picking and choosing data to support their arguments) They are generally selfish and inconsiderate, except to their group and almost always untrustworthy, because of their selfishness. They will back stab their own, much less you and MUCHO, GRANDE amount of defense mechanisms to rationalize their actions! They plot and scheme to promote their perspectives, because of their fragile egos, because essentially they think that their ways are the best, regardless of culture, creed or just general respect. WORST OF ALL, they are JUDGEMENTAL using skewed data and emotional projection!

Essentially, they isolate themselves in like minded communities physically and online and don't seek out information that might contradict their views, so they are adverse to learning and therefore, improving. Trumpistas, Jim Jones, Koresh, Evangelicals, fringe groups and radicals etc exhibit those traits. 

Consider those people's interests currently, it's anti American, because the country is too diverse, too democratic, the press is too free so they court Authoritarians like Oban, Putin, Bolsanaro etc. How are those countries doing with Covid? 

I'm generalizing of course but not by much! 

You might be, because of liberalism and education, know better and want to reach out, but liberals have to learn, that after you have given someone a good period of time to make changes, there's a concept called TOUGH LOVE, that actually works quite well! 

[toomuchbaloney]

1 hour ago, chare said:

What, in your opinion, is the correct term?

Anger.  Frustration.  Impatience.  

Emotions like that might be expected when encountering otherwise educated and smart people want to make dumb arguments for making bad choices during a pandemic.   

[SunDazed, BSN, RN]

On 8/6/2021 at 2:12 PM, DaveICURN said:

Hate not your "antivax" brother or sister. But be understanding of their concern. Sit and talk with them. Attack not their character, but reason with their logic. If education is not something to be attained, then talk of better things and wish them well. They have made a choice. 

You have the freedom to be disappointed in Their choice.   

Thank You.

Like a few others have posted, I don't hate them. Not sure I have the energy or the bandwidth to actually boost my signal.

Remember when there were discussions about shifting from a healthcare model that treats illness to a model that promotes wellbeing and prevention?  A model that rewards providers for screenings and lifestyle education? 

This is the most obvious outcome driven prevention scenario anyone could have not imagined. Yet, unless it becomes fully mandated through various authorities it will not be taken up by many who choose not to believe.

It is an individual choice, but it isn't. It stops being an individual choice when the individual is not the only one that is harmed by the outcome. Is driving on public motorways under the influence of drugs or alcohol an individual choice? 

[toomuchbaloney]

On 8/5/2021 at 9:45 AM, BostonFNP said:

Welcome to the real-world trial. You have been (not-so-)randomized into the control group of the international covid vaccination relative risk reduction experiment. 

Unlike most clinical trials, this one will not be stopped early for benefit, is not funded by any outside source, has the largest sample size of any trial in history, and you can move to the treatment group at any point you return to reality. 

When I read this comment, I hear it in the voice of GLaDOS, from the Portal series. It's more fun that way. 

 

[Lunah, MSN, RN]

5 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

I agree that "hate" is not the correct term for the emotional response that many of us are experiencing.  

It's a lot of disappointment. Like that devastating blow when one of your parents said, "I'm not mad, I'm disappointed." That was just so much worse than being mad. Mad or hateful is a simple feeling, this is so complex. 

[toomuchbaloney]

1 hour ago, Pixie.RN said:

It's a lot of disappointment. Like that devastating blow when one of your parents said, "I'm not mad, I'm disappointed." That was just so much worse than being mad. Mad or hateful is a simple feeling, this is so complex. 

Well said. 

[HarleyvQuinn, MSN, RN, NP]

5 hours ago, chare said:

What, in your opinion, is the correct term?

I imagine that, just like many other complex human emotions, that's going to vary depending on the individual. I certainly can say I don't hate those who are making this choice. I'm frustrated and saddened by their decision and behaviors, but ultimately their fate is their own to make. The developing feeling for the increasing number of painful deaths coming from these decisions, however, is apathy. Like so many others have stated, we have a means now to slow down and prevent much of this devastation. I see it as akin to those who are given advanced warning of devastating storms such as hurricanes who refuse to evacuate but are later stuck on the roof of their home in dire need of help in the worst of the storm or they will die. Taking the advanced warning would have protected them and their families, such as taking primary prevention measures during a deadly pandemic when they're made available. Refusing and trying to weather the deadly storm now not only puts you and your family at risk but also those who try to save you. 

The healthcare professions as a whole are already suffering a great deal of strain from the trauma of this from the first rounds without vaccines. Psychologically, with the kind of workloads we're seeing and the deaths associated with COVID, I'm not at all surprised to see anger from healthcare workers at all. It's trauma. Plain and simple. We haven't even begun to recover, but it's starting all over again. I saw this same kind of anger and emotional response in those who deployed multiple times, both regular military and military healthcare. It eats away at you. Trust me. 

[HarleyvQuinn, MSN, RN, NP]

On 8/6/2021 at 5:09 PM, macawake said:

I like this. I also want this hospital to be located on the opposite side of a very high mountain range from my own location. Preferably a high mountain range with permanently closed passes due to year-round, heavy snowfall with no flights available between the two locations. 

So. . . you're suggesting the hotel from The Shining, right? ?