"Don't waste your time getting your BSN..."

[HeartsOpenWide]

People are always trying to tell me that I am going to waste my time by not stopping after getting my ASN. They say that getting your BSN just gets you management positions and that it does not pay more. I am going for my masters so I can be a CNM, so I have to have my BSN anyway but, how could it be true that a person with a BSN gets the same as a person with a ASN? (Aside from the fact that working in different dept can make a difference)

[txspadequeenRN, BSN, RN]

oh yeah don't stop . i am writing a paper for my sociology class over this thread...social conflict in cyberspace.

p.s. of course if everyone did stop the posturing, i would lose a source of entertainment so..... carry on! lol

[Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN]

oh yeah don't stop . i am writing a paper for my sociology class over this thread...social conflict in cyberspace.

weird, i did the same thing about a year ago. 3,000 words was the minimum. i think my word count was pushing 6,100 when i was done.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

But do you think the extra education makes a difference and where is the evidence? I think that education usually expands the mind, but maybe that is not required for certain fields?? Do you think the extra philosophy classes and math classes, etc... make a difference in the performance of the nurse? If you do then how? Just curious what ya think,

J

BSN programs are more than just a bit of extra math and philosphy classes. They go into more detail in assessment and patho for one thing.

Does it make a better bedside nurse at the entry level? Who knows, since the both wind up taking the same NCLEX, getting the same orientation on the floors, etc.

But let's not demean the BSN while arguing against making it the entry level into nursing practice as "just a few more courses".

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Not to mention intellectual snobbery is reminiscent of grade school......

Not to mention the oppositie. Looking down on the BSN as "just a few more irrellavent courses that doesn't make a better nurse".

(Sorry to get on that bandwagon again. )

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

P.S. of course if everyone did stop the posturing, I would lose a source of entertainment so..... Carry on! LOL

Since I'm the one mod that advocated for these discussions to be allowed, I would look silly without it and my source of entertainment and purpose would be lost.....please carry on. LOL

Honestly, I think though we have opinions, it doesn't occupy a lot of space in our heads or our daily lives in the trenches either.

[RNDave]

Maybe the simple answer to this debate is this: If you want to be a bedside RN only and have no interest in moving up the administrative ladder or getting advanced practice education, then getting a BSN is indeed a waste of time. But then you would be missing out on college at the university level which is a lot more interesting and fun than community college IMVO;).

Another point: Since the profession apparently needs nurse educators to help meet the demand for nurses, ending your education at the ADN level only perpetuates the problem. As a graduate nurse and in my last rotation I had the same ADN trained nurse as a preceptor. She is an amazing nurse and teacher. The profession would be well served with the likes of her educating at the college level. But, alas, with an ADN only you can't do that.

Cheers,

Dave

[Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN]

Not to mention the oppositie. Looking down on the BSN as "just a few more irrellavent courses that doesn't make a better nurse".

(Sorry to get on that bandwagon again. )

That poor bandwagon has busted shocks, worn tires that have long been due for a rotation, new roof, new seats, and alignment. The bandwagons on these subjects need an extreme makeover LOL.

[lindarn]

I believe I do. A had a "diploma" program in engineering. Nursing is doing any GOOD by allowing LESS than a BSN to take the NCLEX.

By allowing this we continue to give the impression nursing is "just a helping" profession rather than an autonomous stand "with the TEAM" profession.

An impression (whether one likes or accepts it or not...) given by less than a BSN is that the person with the lesser degree is WILLING to give less than 100%. I KNOW it isn't the INTENT of the person, but a TRUE professional gives 110% and that includes the personal sacrifice to contribute to making the profession stand up to ANY scrutiny such as the public noting we ALLOW incomplete nursing "degrees" into the BSN/REGISTERED NURSE realm.

Don't tell me it does not matter to the public, either. If it didn't matter there would only be TWO year technical nurses. THAT is what the money hungry hospitals would like: Little robots that have been taught technical TASKS rather than thinking autonomously and with educated REASON.

The best thing that ever happened to nursing and the REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL NURSE is MAGNET status.

If I were an ADN or anything LESS than a BSN I'd be PISSED if I had to take the SAME test and not have career security.

I think that is what the hostility is ALL about: we are not all on EQUAL footing and UNTIL we do get there through grandfathering and ending the POOLING of different depths of nursing education, the hostility between 2-3-4 and EVEN LPN level nurses will never END. Therefore unity can never begin.

The KEY is to PULL us all up....then UNITY, PEACE and PROFESSIONAL status equal to that of other well educated (and well PAID) PROFESSIONS can happen.

Our PAY is going to stay at the LOW end until we gather together as a single, unified PROFESSION and say, "Nope, that isn't ENOUGH for what we have invested in our profession".

I couldn't have said it better myself. Until we have a unified for year college degree as entry into practice, and be on the same page as other health care professionals, we will always be the blue collar, make believe, professionals.

I will also say, the complaint about BSNs not being able to cut it at the bedside, would be eliminated if there was a mandatory one year internship after graduation.

One of the above writers stated how, right after graduation, she was able to "hit the ground running". Now I ask you, how many other health care profsssionals are expected to "hit the ground running", the day after graduation? None. That includes physicians, physical therapists, occupational therapists, etc. They all do an internship after graduation. And I will also add again, that PHYSICAL THERAPY ASSISTANTS, have a two years associates degree as entry into practice. Where does that leave nurses?

Also, what incentive is there for a BSN graduate to stay at the bedside, when their degree is not rewarded with higher pay that can be acheived by going elsewhere for employment? This is the main reason that BSN grads leave the bedside.

And who is responsible for there not being a higher rate of pay? Don't blame the hospital- it is the other nurses, Diploma, and ADN, who need to validate their self worth and self inportance, who don't want BSNs to earn more money. "YOU DO THE SAME JOB, WHY SHOULD YOU EARN MORE"?

And the hospitals just sit back and laugh. They play one against the other. And they win every time. When negotiating union contracts, it is the nursing staff who doesn't want the BSNs to earn more money. They refuse to even include it in the negotiations.

As mentioned by the previos writer, the public does care about education. The public equates worth with education. If asked why Physical Therapists make more money than nurses, they would reply, " WELL, they have a doctorate as entry into practice"!.

Nursing has become the "welfare of the health care professions". The place to go, when you don't want to go to school for a long time, and can get a decent paying job with only two years invested. This lack of investment shows in nurses who would rather walk away from bad work invironments, than stay and fight to make it better. This revolving door environment does nothing but weaken us. No one stays long enough to bring about the needed change, and the destructive cycle continues.

Nothing will ever change until we are on the same page as other health care professionals. Until we stick together in a national union of nurses who have the power, clout, control, and influence to bring about the changes that are needed.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

[HealthyRN]

It may be "intellectual snobbery", but the truth is that some people place a higher value on education than others. There are a lot of things that factor into this including socioeconomic factors, the environment in which you were raised, the values that your family holds, etc. I happen to be one of those for which education is an important value. I don't look down on those with less education because the world needs all sorts of people. If everyone were involved in the pursuit of higher education, our society could not exist as it does. I also know that not everyone has the same opportunities, funds, or ability to attend college.

However, I do believe that there needs to be one entry to practice for nurses and that should be the BSN. As other posters have mentioned, most other health professionals and the public have no idea what is involved in the education of nurses. They see "associates degree" or "diploma" and think "easy". I'm not saying that it is correct, but it is because there are assumed to be fewer standards and less committment required for these programs. That may not be true for ADN or diploma programs, but that is the general assumption across the board for associate degrees (in general) compared to bachelor degrees.

When I entered my BSN program, I did not realize that ADN or diploma programs were available to entry to practice as an RN. If I had known, I would have viewed it as a definite con against entering the profession. I can't say for sure that I would have changed my mind about becoming a nurse, but it would have played a huge role in my decision. Education is an important value in my life and I want to dedicate my life to a profession that also values education. With the current situation, I don't believe that nurses (as a group/profession) demonstrate that they value education. This is probably okay with some people, but very upsetting to others based on their individual value systems (hence this huge debate). Please understand that I'm not saying that I look down on ADN or diploma graduates, because I really don't. I respect all nurses and I believe that knowledge, competence, and compassion are largely dependent on the individual nurse and not the degree status of the nurse. At the same time, my values are different and I have a difficult time understanding why someone wouldn't want to set the standard higher and achieve more education.

[Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN]

Honestly, i've seen more intellectual snobbery on this thread, than in the area i live in, or the people i work with.

[Dragonnurse1, ASN, RN]

Dear Lord Let us put an end to this thread. Some people will not give credit to others if the other person has less education or a lower degree - as I noted for one of my psych papers the aggressers tend to be males.

In this state an Associate of Science in Nursing is 65 hours of college.

A Batcholors of Science in Nursing requires 105 more hours of NON NURSING COURSES. If The MSN has to do more clinical work and write a thesis.

One day the infamous "they" are going to reguire BSN's just like Banks were going to phase our paper money by the year 2000. If you are happy with your BSN be happy and leave every one else alone. In Alabama A BSN and 1$ will get you a cup of coffee. (By the way ASN and BSN are hired at the same pay with diff's for ACLS, PALs, and working 2nd or 3rd shift.

Can we please drop it and by the way Jerico keep your quotes correct I said the truth of the mattter is a 3 edged sword, your side, my side and then the truth.

Don't ever tell a ASN/ADN that they have not gone thru time, the effort and the money to earn a higher education.

If you want to keep to debate send me a message direct. 7 quarters of 14 to 16 hours - don't tell me i did not work for my degree.

[amzyRN]

It may be "intellectual snobbery", but the truth is that some people place a higher value on education than others. There are a lot of things that factor into this including socioeconomic factors, the environment in which you were raised, the values that your family holds, etc. I happen to be one of those for which education is an important value. I don't look down on those with less education because the world needs all sorts of people. If everyone were involved in the pursuit of higher education, our society could not exist as it does. I also know that not everyone has the same opportunities, funds, or ability to attend college.

However, I do believe that there needs to be one entry to practice for nurses and that should be the BSN. As other posters have mentioned, most other health professionals and the public have no idea what is involved in the education of nurses. They see "associates degree" or "diploma" and think "easy". I'm not saying that it is correct, but it is because there are assumed to be fewer standards and less committment required for these programs. That may not be true for ADN or diploma programs, but that is the general assumption across the board for associate degrees (in general) compared to bachelor degrees.

When I entered my BSN program, I did not realize that ADN or diploma programs were available to entry to practice as an RN. If I had known, I would have viewed it as a definite con against entering the profession. I can't say for sure that I would have changed my mind about becoming a nurse, but it would have played a huge role in my decision. Education is an important value in my life and I want to dedicate my life to a profession that also values education. With the current situation, I don't believe that nurses (as a group/profession) demonstrate that they value education. This is probably okay with some people, but very upsetting to others based on their individual value systems (hence this huge debate). Please understand that I'm not saying that I look down on ADN or diploma graduates, because I really don't. I respect all nurses and I believe that knowledge, competence, and compassion are largely dependent on the individual nurse and not the degree status of the nurse. At the same time, my values are different and I have a difficult time understanding why someone wouldn't want to set the standard higher and achieve more education.

I would hope that if a BSN would be the entry to practice that that would lessen the assumptions that nursing is easy. I agree that people think "easy" w/r/t "associates degree" and "diploma". I have also noticed that some folks, regardless of degree, think nursing=easy. When I was in my last year of undergrad as a bio science major, I told some classmates that I wanted to go into nursing and they said that I should choose a more intellectually challenging field. They said that nursing would be too easy. Well, I knew right away that these people were obviously ignorant of nursing, but that assumption of nursing as easy is alive and well in the academic world as well. I would hope that advanced degrees would put that stereotype to rest, but I'm not quite sure that it will,

J:balloons: