"Don't waste your time getting your BSN..."

jjjoy, LPN · Sep 14, 2007

I think preppygirl meant that nursing programs being administered through community colleges and tech schools don't give the impression of being very difficult to get into or very difficult to pass. Of course, the reality can be quite different, and does vary between schools.

Why should a nurse, who has people's physical lives in his/her hands, be qualified to work as a full-fledged RN with two or three years of education when teachers who teach above the pre-school level generally have to have 5 years of education (bachelor's + 1 year for credential)? Or maybe such requirements are too much and teachers should be qualified through a two or three year community college program?

Finally, LVN school is just a year long in many places. Yes, they are nurses but one year of training really is quite short. It's an intensive year, I'm sure. Still, if your child's fifth grade teacher had *just* one year of training above and beyond their high school degree, would you feel that was enough? Maybe it would be.

Just questions, no answers here!

amzyRN · Sep 14, 2007

Everyone has an opinion, so here is mine. I have my BSN, which I completed after getting my ADN first. I initially went for the ADN because people (nurses included) told me the BSN was not necessary unless you wanted to work in "management". While I was in school I started noticing that while some ADN's worked in specialty areas, the OR, ER, ICU, and L & D had more BSN's working. Since I did not want to work in a nursing home, or on a floor the rest of my life, I got my BSN. I don't get paid much more for it, but education is never a waste of time. I like that I can tell doctors that I have a college degree and graduated summa cum laude from a university, and I didn't "just go" to a community college. I am not knocking ADN's, but they need to do away with Associate degree programs and make entry level for practice a BSN. Don't get me wrong, the associate degree was not easy to get, but no one will every respect us as professionals with degrees from community colleges. While not anyone can GRADUATE from an ADN program, anyone with a pulse can get into a community college, and the public and fellow health care collegues know it. I don't feel that the BSN makes one a better nurse necessarily, but having the degree has opened doors for me, I don't regret it at all. Nursing is a difficult career that requires one to make life and death decisions. We are not even close to getting the respect we deserve, because we don't respect ourselves. I have met nurses that only became RN's because they needed a job and they could get in and out quick in an ADN program. People who want to be MD's are willing to work and study hard to do it, and dedicate years of their lives to their profession. Why aren't nurses the same? MD's are not smarter than RN's, but they receive respect because of the level of education they have. What is there to respect about a degree from a community college? Or even worse, a vocational school? Realize one thing though, the two year degree is a myth. It will take you three, almost four years to get it. You might as well do the BSN. I understand that some do not have the time, money, or circumstances to invest four years in a career, but the reality is that associate and LPN programs have really hurt the nursing profession. First of all they need to close down LPN schools and stop training them. Second they need to shut down ADN programs and make all ADN's get their BSN. There is one way to become a Doctor, Lawyer, teacher, etc. There needs to be one way to become a nurse. Only then will we be recognized as a real profession with the respect, and compensation that we deserve.

I agree with some of what you said about higher degrees getting more respect and such and that gettin more education is never a waste of time, but I also think that intellectual snobbery is kind of dumb. And I don't mean that you were being that way, I mean that people who look down their nose at others for whatever reason are pretty lame. Additionally, there are doctors and other more "educated" health professionals that are intellectual snobs, which reveals their own lack of intellegence in my opinion. But, that is what we are faced with in our society, unfortuanately. I also don't think they should necessarily do away with LPN/LVN schools, b/c they provide a big help to RNs. Wouldn't RNs be overburdened if there were no LPN's? I also think that the ADN or diploma nurse could easily tack on an extra year and get the BSN, just to have options somewhere down the road if they wanted to get their masters or doctoral degree. I'll stop with my redundant opinions now and wish you all the best,

J

amzyRN · Sep 14, 2007

I think preppygirl meant that nursing programs being administered through community colleges and tech schools don't give the impression of being very difficult to get into or very difficult to pass. Of course, the reality can be quite different, and does vary between schools.
Why should a nurse, who has people's physical lives in his/her hands, be qualified to work as a full-fledged RN with two or three years of education when teachers who teach above the pre-school level generally have to have 5 years of education (bachelor's + 1 year for credential)? Or maybe such requirements are too much and teachers should be qualified through a two or three year community college program?
Finally, LVN school is just a year long in many places. Yes, they are nurses but one year of training really is quite short. It's an intensive year, I'm sure. Still, if your child's fifth grade teacher had *just* one year of training above and beyond their high school degree, would you feel that was enough? Maybe it would be.
Just questions, no answers here!

But do you think the extra education makes a difference and where is the evidence? I think that education usually expands the mind, but maybe that is not required for certain fields?? Do you think the extra philosophy classes and math classes, etc... make a difference in the performance of the nurse? If you do then how? Just curious what ya think,

J

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Sep 14, 2007

I think preppygirl meant that nursing programs being administered through community colleges and tech schools don't give the impression of being very difficult to get into or very difficult to pass. Of course, the reality can be quite different, and does vary between schools.
Why should a nurse, who has people's physical lives in his/her hands, be qualified to work as a full-fledged RN with two or three years of education when teachers who teach above the pre-school level generally have to have 5 years of education (bachelor's + 1 year for credential)? Or maybe such requirements are too much and teachers should be qualified through a two or three year community college program?
Finally, LVN school is just a year long in many places. Yes, they are nurses but one year of training really is quite short. It's an intensive year, I'm sure. Still, if your child's fifth grade teacher had *just* one year of training above and beyond their high school degree, would you feel that was enough? Maybe it would be.
Just questions, no answers here!

I'd ask the teacher what education that year included.

I wouldn't assume (there's that word again) that a teacher with one year of education is less prepared to teach.

Same as i wouldn't assume that the nurse who has less than a bachelor's degree doesn't know doo-doo from Shinola.

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Sep 14, 2007

I agree with some of what you said about higher degrees getting more respect and such and that gettin more education is never a waste of time, but I also think that intellectual snobbery is kind of dumb.

Not to mention intellectual snobbery is reminiscent of grade school......

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Sep 14, 2007

please explain to all the lvn's and adn's here on this forum your basis for claiming that our mere existence has "really hurt the nursing profession".

i'm sure my part in that has been my constant consumption of boiled eggs and the gas that creates.

amzyRN · Sep 14, 2007

There are no conclusive studies. They are just too difficult to undertake. The ones that have concluded BSNs are safer nurses have had flaws. https://allnurses.com/forums/1379680-post3.html
Med-surg is BSN preferred where you live? Interesting.

Actually I double checked that and the only thing I found was BSN or (some type of extra certification) required for the OR nurse. I was looking in the job openings with the city and county of san francisco. I have found more limitations out here in private hospitals where BSN preferred or required, from what I remember when I looked. I'll double check though. It seems strange that there would be limitations placed on an RN if their education is sufficient. Thanks for the link,

J

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Sep 15, 2007

Actually I double checked that and the only thing I found was BSN or (some type of extra certification) required for the OR nurse. I was looking in the job openings with the city and county of san francisco. I have found more limitations out here in private hospitals where BSN preferred or required, from what I remember when I looked. I'll double check though. It seems strange that there would be limitations placed on an RN if their education is sufficient. Thanks for the link,
J

It's either a CNOR or RNFA. Odds are it's the RNFA.

sharona97, BSN, RN · Sep 15, 2007

OK Preppy Girl, who "used to have an associates and worked hard for it. Are you that much above the rest of us? What if I came out of Harlem and went to a comunity school, Phi Theta Kappa, but could run circles around your skills and productivity? It's possible. And Doctors require compassion and memory to learn their chosen profession. I feel it's pretty degrading now not to just nurses who took another path than you, but you are digging in pretty deep saying you are just as smart as an M.D. What medical school did you say you went to for your M.D.? oh I forgot your just as smart and don't need the training. Nurses are trained and become experienced, it's a fact. How you handle your personal licensure is one thing, but don't mess with mine, I too worked hard.

amzyRN · Sep 15, 2007

I've actually met some doctors, in fact I've been unlucky enough to have them as my doctors, that lack intellect and compassion. There can be a bad apple (or several) in any profession.

J

smk1, LPN · Sep 15, 2007

Dear god make it stop....

seriously, I honestly think people just aren't happy unless there is something to complain about. If we all had BSN degrees, then we would debate university vs private college rigors or ivy leagure vs less prestigious schools, MSN as the new entry level because BSN nurses couldn't possibly know what they don't know and never learned to think critically and on and on and on. If Joe smoe wants to get an ADN, more power to him. if Mary contrary wants a BSN, great! if Boo Radley wants a diploma, even better because guess what? The US allows all of these entry levels into nursing and no one has definitively proven that BSN is the best route to go, so until that happens, there is no need to rag on other people's educational choices because like it or not diploma/BSN/ADN all earn the same title at the end of the day and yes they are all colleagues. It would behoove everyone to just stop the insane bickering over who is better because there are too many variables thrown into the mix to tell anyway.

P.S. of course if everyone did stop the posturing, I would lose a source of entertainment so..... Carry on! LOL

leslymill · Sep 15, 2007

"Quote" I've never med a nurse ADN, BSN or Diploma that was ready to hit the ground running.

I was thrown to the wolves like that in 1981. Orientation was a tour with the DON. my title was still Graduate Student Nurse though I had taken the NCLEX but the hospital didn't know if I had passed.

She made the job seem like roses. This is our two bed ICU. This is our lil ER, attended by the lil EMT. Here is the nursery, empty at the moment. I was told the Surgical Unit on the other side of the hospital had an RN who could answer any questions I had. I had 30 patients and was told I would have two LPNs and two NAs. I had one LPN who split the charting with me. She gave all PO meds and I gave IV's. About 3 days into this position, I ask what the TV monitor is doing at the desk for? LPN tells, me. It is so I could see when I had an ER pt . My rose colored glasses fell to the floor on the spot. I decided to go down and introduce myself to the EMT. Come to find out not only was I in charge of the med/surg floor and ER, I was the L&D nurse and the Nursery nurse. I expressed my concerns and was patted on the back and reassured it was cake. ( I heard the time bomb it it going...tic ...tic....tic)

After a few months of this I developed a plan. My issue was I had to leave ER patients to hang IV meds because I refused to let the LPN hand them even if they were checked and ready. (I was always preparing for the worst). The potential for disaster's were huge. The Diploma RN on the surg floor was also a nurse anesthetist who was married to a surgeon and she averaged 20 to 25 Pts mostly ambulatory, not to mention she had 20 years experience. My floor was full all the time . I suggested to the DON that the surg RN and I swap floors every two weeks. (She hated L&D). In 4 months we had and ER RN around the clock. Slowly the hospital became safe.