PTO being used by hospital?

chare · Oct 19

This has been the practice at most facilities where I have worked. If staff that were called off due to low census wanted to be paid for their time, they used their PTO. At both my current and previous facility, time off due to low census could be taken as unpaid time.

As for per diem staff, the were the first to be called off, regardless of the reason.

JKL33 · Oct 19

Many times I don't answer these questions by whether or not they are typical. Lots of undesirable things are typical from employers. The question is, is it tolerable to you? Is it acceptable.

I typically don't find it acceptable to be treated unfairly or otherwise poorly to meet others' needs or so that an employer can avoid a hardship or inconvenience. It is a matter of opinion whether or not your employer's practice/policy is poor treatment/unfair. I'll just say your situation would probably bug me a fair amount just on the basis that it is one-sided; there for their needs, not mine. Still, if it suited my life, I'd stick with it. The minute it was either too unfair or no longer suited my life/my needs, I'd be gone.

Duncan6 · Oct 19

Thanks for the feedback. It sounds like this isn't an uncommon practice. @JKL33 I agree with you. I don't have a lot of good options right now, so I'm staying where I am unless something comes along unexpectedly. It does irritate me that it all seems to be what is beneficial for the company. I'd take it unpaid, but I just can't afford that- espcially as often as it's happened lately.

FolksBtrippin, BSN, RN · Oct 22

This was the official policy at the last hospital I worked in (psych units). However, it never happened to nurses. They would float you, but never call you off. Never happened to techs either. It did happen to child life counselors, but they also had the option to float to an adult unit as a tech. They generally didn't want to do that (they hated being referred to as techs) and would take the call-off. I feel like if you get called off a lot, or enough for it to put a significant dent in your pto, that's a reason to look elsewhere. At one of my community jobs, they would make you use your PTO for a snow day. Which I found to be outrageous, but it was rare enough that I didn't quit over it.

klone, MSN, RN · Oct 23

Is it typical for them to expect you to use PTO for hours you're not working? Yes. Either that, or go unpaid.

Is it typical for hospitals to treat staff like widgets to move around at their whim, with no regard for the fact that people need to make a living and pay their bills? I would say it's not COMMON, but it's not unheard of. It's more typical to see this at for-profit hospitals, or places that don't have collective bargaining.

As JKL mentioned, whether it's acceptable to you, and whether the benefits of continuing to work there outweigh these factors, is something only you can answer.

mdsRN2005, ASN, BSN, RN · Oct 23

Hypothetically if you weren't using your pto to get paid during low census would they still make you take it when you don't want? I ask because a friend worked at a small hospital that suddenly realized if two older nurses (who apparently never took time off) quit at the same time and cashed out their hundreds of hours at the same time it would almost bankrupt the hospital. So they made them start using it and instituted a new rule that no one could keep more than a certain number of hours. If this is not the case where you work, and if you only take it to get paid, you have more wiggle room. Have you considered getting a PRN job somewhere else? Especially if it was one with flexible last minute scheduling. Then when you get called off at your primary job, you could see if they needed help for the day. This might allow you to avoid using your pto just for a paycheck. However that then begs the question of whether they'd allow you to use it when you want if you had plenty. I fought that battle with a manager and won, but it took going to HR to do it. I also had hundreds of hours and had reached the point where if my requests got denied they had to let me cash it out (think this set in around 350 hours?) I think HR might have been a little worried if they didn't work it out to my satisfaction I'd leave and they'd have to pay me out. While it wouldn't bankrupt them like the small hospital, they didn't want to do it. So they told my manager that any time I wanted off, as long as I requested two weeks in advance, he had to approve it. But I only had this leverage by having so much built up, which is why I'd consider finding a way to supplement the income loss without using it if possible. And ultimately like the previous poster said, it's a question of is it tolerable or has it become a deal breaker?

brandy1017, ASN, RN · Oct 23

Duncan6 said:

Thanks for the feedback. It sounds like this isn't an uncommon practice. @JKL33 I agree with you. I don't have a lot of good options right now, so I'm staying where I am unless something comes along unexpectedly. It does irritate me that it all seems to be what is beneficial for the company. I'd take it unpaid, but I just can't afford that- espcially as often as it's happened lately.

Yes it is very common in healthcare in hospital and office settings. In hospitals it can be more often in ICU or day surgery where census fluctuates more, unless people are able or willing to float. There is usually voluntary low census so depending on the amount of staff it may not be an issue, but the twin problems are short staffing and having vacation requests denied over this followed by unplanned mandatory low census. Some units will even low census staff halfway during the shift and/or put them on call adding insult to injury. For offices staff can find themselves low censused when the Dr's take their vacations.

The other issue which is ridiculous is some greedy unethical corporate employers will actually refuse to pay out your PTO when you leave unless it is mandated by the state or city you live in as there is no federal requirement for vacation or sick leave. There are only a handful of cities and states that mandate PTO payout so unless you have a union contract or decent employer they can legally steal your hard earned PTO when you leave. Check your policy handbook and HR as they have to tell you this upfront if they refuse to pay out unused PTO. But use your PTO before you go if you can. Take a staycation, use FMLA if possible or for low census, but don't let them steal your benefits!

mmc51264, BSN, MSN, RN · Oct 23

The only time they didn't make us use PTO for sickness was during Covid, for Covid.

brandy1017 said:

Take a staycation, use FMLA if possible or for low census,

Even if you use FMLA, it is paid out of PTO bank. I have a friend that had intermittent FMLA for migraines, she didn't want to use PTO, just go unpaid and they wouldn't let her.

As for the other part, this seems to be the new trend post-Covid, the hospitals are staffing up so that there is virtually no OT or use of PRN staff. Another friend has been working a lot of OT (too much, I think) and is upset that there are not going to be much available. Not to mention that she really liked "incentive pay" that was being paid to keep us safely staffed during Covid and after, up until now. We were getting as much as $50/hr for working OT. This nurse started right before Covid. I told her that this is not normal. We would work at minimal levels. There was no IP and little OT.

I have changed jobs and am not at the same hosp as I was during Covid. I am not looking for OT anymore LOL I had my fill during the pandemic! The money was great, but no more. My Covid "reward" was a German Shepherd puppy and now I enjoy my time with her. ♥️

kbrn2002, ADN, RN · Oct 25

Is it normal? Sadly yes, it is. When I was working at my previous clinic we were only open half days on Tues, Thurs and Sat so any of those days I was scheduled I had to use my PTO if I wanted to be paid my my full scheduled hours. We do have several clinics in the area so I could have just gone from my home clinic to a sister clinic the other half day IF anybody else needed staff and I wanted to, which I did not. When all clinics were fully staffed, which they usually were that option wasn't available even if I I wanted to go to a different clinic for a half day. Fortunately our PTO accrual is fairly generous so I never had the problem of running too low on available PTO hours.

brandy1017, ASN, RN · Oct 25

mmc51264 said:

I have changed jobs and am not at the same hosp as I was during Covid. I am not looking for OT anymore LOL I had my fill during the pandemic! The money was great, but no more. My Covid "reward" was a German Shepherd puppy and now I enjoy my time with her. ♥️

Glad you found a new job with better work life balance where you can spend time with your puppy! It will be 4 years since I took early retirement in December and the best thing about it has been the extra time I've been able to spend with our family dog Buster. It is all the more bittersweet now as he has just been diagnosed with lymphoma, a devastating disease. I'm heartbroken, my only consolation is all the time I've had with him for these past 4 years.

He just turned 9 this September and has struggled with bad allergies, atopic dermatitis, has been on various immunologics to treat it which sadly increase cancer risk along with his age. Atopica has worked the best, but he developed tumors that needed surgery twice in 4 months, plasmacytomas, a rare coincidence that has been noted with atopica. They were benign but due to recurrence we saw a chemo Dr who started him on melphalan. I swear they used to use that for organ transplants back in the day. Both meds can cause GI side effects nausea, vomiting, diarrhea so I thought his issues were from the meds and I would premedicate with compazine or cerenia. In reality it may have been the lymphoma hiding in plain sight and was discovered after he couldn't eat or stop vomiting 24 hours and an abdominal US found nodules in his spleen.

We just got the results that he has Type T lymphoma called "terrible" worse than B called "bad" which is more common and started chemo the UW-Madison Chop protocol. In the interim he was off both meds, discovered he was allergic to chicken a mainstay of his diet and even ice cream so now his diet is restricted. I had assumed he just had environmental allergies all this time. We know roundup is linked to lymphoma and they believe some viruses may cause T-cell lymphoma.

It was a shocking diagnosis I had no idea, yes looking back he had been slowly losing weight. Without treatment they say he could die within weeks! With just prednisone maybe live a month or two so CHOP is our best hope along with prayer. I'm spending my time researching medical articles and videos by Dr's and people who have been thru this with their beloved pets. So please say a prayer for Buster if you would, it would be much appreciated. He is beloved by the whole family! He is my baby!

Home Health Columnist / Guide · Oct 26

((( Prayers for Buster))). My foster Wheaton Terrier back from rescues medical clinic getting his IDDM regulated --now biting my hand/hiding in cage when time to get BID insulin --trying to give him every chance at life can be exhausting.

RE PTO:

Many nurses unaware that some state have no PTO laws including somethat don't require PTO to be provided.

PTO Laws by State in 2024

The following jurisdiction and states do not currently enforce PTO laws:

Alaska
Florida
Hawaii
Idaho
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Kentucky
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania1
South Carolina2
South Dakota3
Texas
Utah
Washington, D.C.
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming

1 Pennsylvania does not have a statewide PTO law, but Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Allegheny County mandate paid sick time.
2 South Carolina mandates paid parental leave for certain state employees and public school teachers.
3 South Dakota mandates paid family leave for certain state employees.

Several states have mandatory PTO requirements #hrs --but are for state employees only! Some don't require PTO payout at termination/leaving. Read the article to see what may be required in your state.

As a home care Manager in multi-state organization, policy was to require use of PTO first for time not worked, only if exhausted all PTO could we list unpaid time when low census or if out extended sick leave --with permission.

Vote with your feet if needed to another position --once secured!