President Biden thread

mtmkjr said:

Understandable where you are coming from. 

I also don't believe abortion can be eliminated through political arguments, but only by winning people over through their hearts and their minds. And that's exactly where things have gone wrong in that instead of winning hearts and minds through persuasion, care of those most affected, and by respectful debate, there is an attack on people's hearts and minds

And eachother and characters. 

toomuchbaloney said:

If only your misrepresentations and stances about abortion to this point reflect ANY  of that compassion or understanding for other women.  

What are my "stances about abortion"? Up to this point I didn't share my "stance on abortion" . You only applied what YOU though my stance was based on your discrimatory mind set for anyone having a differing opinion not popular with the far left zealots you chose to follow. 

How do you know as a man any experience a woman has? Empathy is defined as putting one's self in the others position. I've been in the position of the women I apparently "abuse". You're a man and can never been in that position.  I'm sure your compassion for women is severely limited whether they agree to an abortion at any stage or as long as she and her Dr decide. Or if you deem them a MAGA.  

Any woman saying otherwise deserves no compassion and will get none from you because they are a far right radical indoctrinated cult nazi radical. Who wants to live in the radical feminist fantasy if the Handmaid's Tale. 

Compassion criticizing. Ritch. When your only thought about the attempted assination of a former president is that it is unfortunate because it will make him look like a "sympathetic person". 

What you have is sympathy for these women you speak of. Which is differnt then empathy as it related to your feelings of pity.  You feel sympathy for these women because you feel a evil republican caused harm to her and satisfies your hatred.  However your feelings have little to do with the woman. It's more about the hatred you feel for anyone that has a differnt opinion. 

please tell me more about how a woman feels and how compassion works...... 

Tweety said:

I know from years of interacting with you that nothing I or anyone else says,  discourages you from posting and that wasn't my objective.  

There's evidence coming out that abortions have dropped here in Florida for residents.  I'm too lazy to link to it because I'm having lunch, but the 6 week ban just started in May so it's way too soon to come up with evidence.  So if abortions have dropped that either means women are carrying them to full term (saving the baby's life) or avoiding pregnancy altogether.  

On a side note, I have read that in some demographics STDs are even dropping after Roe vs. Wade was ended as young people are having more responsible sex to avoid pregnancy and thus disease.  I guess now is the time to invest in condom makers as they are going gangbusters.  Not my demographic however since we can't get pregnant we're still supposedly spreading STD's.  

I don't think that it's that much of a stretch that abortion bans are about saving babies rather than controlling women (by old white men) as left wing rhetoric claims.  For some people, my aunt for example, that's exactly what it's about since they feel abortion is killing a baby.  

(Like I've said, I do wish they show the same concern for poverty stricken children or victims of gun violence but that's a deflection that I'm making.)

There apparently was an immediate drop in the number of abortions in Florida after the new law took affect in May. That makes sense.  The providers would immediately cease offering services or guidance on abortion at 6 weeks gestation. I think it means that the women are carrying the pregnancy (and the risks and the costs) to delivery, or they are traveling for abortions, or they are getting contraband mifepristone. 

https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2024/07/07/florida-abortions-dropped-after-six-week-ban-took-effect-may-report-says/

https://www.flhealthcharts.gov/ChartsDashboards/rdPage.aspx?rdReport=BirthMonthly.Dataviewer&cid=25

Interestingly, since the new laws, number of live births in Florida are down noticeably. 

At the same time that there are fewer babies born with the new laws, more live birth infants die after birth in those states.  

https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(23)00408-7/fulltext

Quote

Conclusions

State-level abortion law restrictiveness is associated with higher county-level infant mortality rates. The Supreme Court decision on Dobbs versus Jackson and changes in state laws limiting abortion may affect future infant mortality.

 I think that the new and restrictive laws create an air of uncertainty and confusion around these reproductive health choices.  

So, maybe people have an emotional belief that these restrictions are saving babies, but the immediate data paints a different picture, would you agree? 

I think it's important to put concern about unborn fetuses into context by comparing it to concern about already born children.  I've noted before that the states with the strictest abortion bans are some with the most children living in poverty or the most hungry children or many children with no access to healthcare or housing.  

I contend that if we want any of those issues addressed, Biden is the candidate most likely to accomplish meaningful progress.  

So interesting that you have Crusades describing more in depth her personal experience and how that has impacted her views on abortion and possibly leaning a little more towards pro-choice. And then you have Tweety leaning slightly to a pro-life position, while politically aligning more to the left. 

Just goes to show that we can't make sweeping generalizations and assume things about people (I do it myself so this is for me as much as anyone)

mtmkjr said:

So interesting that you have Crusades describing more in depth her personal experience and how that has impacted her views on abortion and possibly leaning a little more towards pro-choice. And then you have Tweety leaning slightly to a pro-life position, while politically aligning more to the left. 

Just goes to show that we can't make sweeping generalizations and assume things about people (I do it myself so this is for me as much as anyone)

I agree we shouldn't make broad generalizations.  But we can make assessments about members based upon pages and pages of comment and response. 

We've sometimes had this discussion about "not all Republicans" or "not all conservatives" in the era of Trump.  Historians won't have to be so careful about the descriptive language they use to describe this era... unless Biden doesn't win.  In that case Trump will write the history they way any despot would.  

Lots and lots of families have stories that involve abortions or difficult choices.  Mine does too.  But we should want laws based upon facts and data and evidence.  When a member feigns ignorance of the real consequences and threats to women when abortion is not available to them, or minimizes the reports as fake news, it's fair to characterize that as not caring about the suffering of other women.  That's the impression that tactic gives, IMV. 

toomuchbaloney said:

I agree we shouldn't make broad generalizations.  But we can make assessments about members based upon pages and pages of comment and response. 

We've sometimes had this discussion about "not all Republicans" or "not all conservatives" in the era of Trump.  Historians won't have to be so careful about the descriptive language they use to describe this era... unless Biden doesn't win.  In that case Trump will write the history they way any despot would.  

Lots and lots of families have stories that involve abortions or difficult choices.  Mine does too.  But we should want laws based upon facts and data and evidence.  When a member feigns ignorance of the real consequences and threats to women when abortion is not available to them, or minimizes the reports as fake news, it's fair to characterize that as not caring about the suffering of other women.  That's the impression that tactic gives, IMV. 

 

I've literally done none of that. But you think I hav3 only because I'm a Trump supporter.  You've actually been quite hostile. 

Please, by all means. Show your evidence that I've done any of these things. 

toomuchbaloney said:

I think that the new and restrictive laws create an air of uncertainty and confusion around these reproductive health choices.  

I think providers here in Florida are indeed frustrated with the law, mainly what are the exceptions and with jail time threatened they don't help mothers after six weeks.

https://www.npr.org/2024/06/06/nx-s1-4995739/abortion-exceptions-life-mother-florida#:~:text=As of last month%2C Florida,than for mental health reasons.

But from what I'm seeing, the lay person here is pretty clear on understanding that you can't get an abortion after six weeks.  I think this has lead for an increased fear of getting an unwanted pregnancy and a little more attention to prevention, particularly from the men.  

However, contraception isn't always accessible to the poor and the poor are the ones most likely to experience infant mortality and other issues of pre-natal care.

I think though it's a bit too soon for studies to show what exactly the impact of such a restrictive policy is going to have.  I imagine there might be some good and some bad out of it all.

Tweety said:

and yet you give no grace to someone that thinks abortion bans save babies and might have arrived at that through intelligent thought rather than propaganda.  That's all I'm saying.  You don't have to sell me your opinion (I didn't read it).

Here's the problem.  A 10 year old victim of rape has to go out of state to get an abortion.  Women have to wait until they are septic until they can get an abortion.  Women are forced to give birth to babies with major neurological problems like anacephaly.  Children are forced to birth but will spend their lives in a chronic care children's hospital - the saddest places in the world.  Some will die of abuse.  the 20 week point, IMHO, was a wise compromise.  I worry that states that have harsh  abortion laws will eventually outlaw birth control and sterilization procedures.  So, I'm not sure that anyone who has zealous abortion prohibitions is actually using their intelligence because they are ignorant of the consequences.  If you think that anyone has an reason to force a 10 year old to give birth, they are not intelligent.  One of the first things I learned when I became a CASA was that incest is common in families that get reported to CPS and eventually wind up in family court and that incest in generational.  The family members may not report on a child being molested in the family because the one doing the molesting has the best paying job in the house and they don't want that person removed.  So, no, in the end, I'm not in favor of adolescents being forced to give birth.  Sometimes the right thing to do is the thing that makes you uncomfortable.

subee said:

Here's the problem.  A 10 year old victim of rape has to go out of state to get an abortion.  Women have to wait until they are septic until they can get an abortion.  Women are forced to give birth to babies with major neurological problems like anacephaly.  Children are forced to birth but will spend their lives in a chronic care children's hospital - the saddest places in the world.  Some will die of abuse.  the 20 week point, IMHO, was a wise compromise.  I worry that states that have harsh  abortion laws will eventually outlaw birth control and sterilization procedures.  So, I'm not sure that anyone who has zealous abortion prohibitions is actually using their intelligence because they are ignorant of the consequences.  If you think that anyone has an reason to force a 10 year old to give birth, they are not intelligent.  One of the first things I learned when I became a CASA was that incest is common in families that get reported to CPS and eventually wind up in family court and that incest in generational.  The family members may not report on a child being molested in the family because the one doing the molesting has the best paying job in the house and they don't want that person removed.  So, no, in the end, I'm not in favor of adolescents being forced to give birth.  Sometimes the right thing to do is the thing that makes you uncomfortable.

I meant to say a lack of EQ, not a lack of IQ .

toomuchbaloney said:

There apparently was an immediate drop in the number of abortions in Florida after the new law took affect in May. That makes sense.  The providers would immediately cease offering services or guidance on abortion at 6 weeks gestation. I think it means that the women are carrying the pregnancy (and the risks and the costs) to delivery, or they are traveling for abortions, or they are getting contraband mifepristone. 

https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2024/07/07/florida-abortions-dropped-after-six-week-ban-took-effect-may-report-says/

https://www.flhealthcharts.gov/ChartsDashboards/rdPage.aspx?rdReport=BirthMonthly.Dataviewer&cid=25

Interestingly, since the new laws, number of live births in Florida are down noticeably. 

At the same time that there are fewer babies born with the new laws, more live birth infants die after birth in those states.  

https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(23)00408-7/fulltext

 I think that the new and restrictive laws create an air of uncertainty and confusion around these reproductive health choices.  

So, maybe people have an emotional belief that these restrictions are saving babies, but the immediate data paints a different picture, would you agree? 

I think it's important to put concern about unborn fetuses into context by comparing it to concern about already born children.  I've noted before that the states with the strictest abortion bans are some with the most children living in poverty or the most hungry children or many children with no access to healthcare or housing.  

I contend that if we want any of those issues addressed, Biden is the candidate most likely to accomplish meaningful progress.  

And then there is the extension of their highly restrictive policies that would declare embryos to be babies.  That is so frought with complications and I haven't seen people stepping up yet to buy medical freezers for their own use to adopt the embryos for eternity.

Crusades said:

I've literally done none of that. But you think I hav3 only because I'm a Trump supporter.  You've actually been quite hostile. 

Please, by all means. Show your evidence that I've done any of these things. 

Your comments tell us about you and your belief system.  

Hostility begets hostility just like violent rhetoric leads to violence.  

I am not interesting in reading about others points on abortion and will stay out of it.  Because there's no point in that one is dug in with what they know is truth.  I was just annoyed with "it's my opinion and I'm right but your opinion is right wing propaganda".

I think worrying that a woman won't be able to get her tubes tied is left wing propaganda.  Just sayin