Older Student, Unprofessional Nurse During Clinical

[Nurse Magnolia]

After many, many years (20!) of "thinking about it", I finally decided at age 45 to go back to school for nursing. My mom was a nurse for 50 years and even though I have two other bachelor's degrees, the timing was never right for the commitment of nursing school. Now that I have two kids in college and my other two kids are high school aged, I decided that this was my time.

I will graduate one year from now from one of the remaining hospital based diploma programs (Our area is actually FULL of them) and then I will immediately bridge to a BSN after just two semesters because of my other degrees. I am currently a 4.0 student.

Because I am in a hospital based program, we get A LOT of clinical experience (it's the reason I chose this type of program) and so far, my experiences have been great and have only solidified my desire to be a nurse. I am loving every second of it.

However, this week I experiences something I didn't expect. I half expected rude nurses or the dreaded "eat their young" nurses (which would be kind of tough on me because I'm older than many of them!) and I wasn't so worried about that because I've been dealing with mean girls since long before the movie.....but I didn't expect to hear nurses talking so badly about their PATIENTS!

I was sitting at the nurses desk looking up my patient's meds for my upcoming med pass. The nurse sitting next to me was kabitzing with the other nurse. These are well established nurses. And the one nurse starts complaining about the patient down the floor being a ******* **** (but she said the words) because he was complaining about his pain following a prostatectomy (this is a urology floor). Then she went on to say that the wife reported that the patient was a Marine and so she determined that he was the wussiest Marine she'd ever seen. For 5 minutes...full of swearing and making fun of this patient. The other nurse listened, and laughed. But did not join in the name calling. But she sure didn't condemn it either.

I. Was. Stunned. I said nothing because I am a student, but I did ask my clinical instructor about it because the family was walking around and could have SO EASILY heard this nurses comments.

So, my question to you from a very naive nursing student....Is this the norm? Will I need to toughen up? Should I have said something to to the nurse? Should I have told my instructor as I did? I thought it was waaaayyyy out of line, but then I started remembering that they tell us that they are teaching us to graduate nursing school and when you are on the floor it's a whole other ballgame.

If this is the ballgame, I'm not playing that game. I may not have any friends on the floor, but I'm not going to participate in that kind of talk about patients. I get venting or expressing frustration about a difficult client, but please tell me that is not the norm....

So what say you, oh wise nurses?

[vanilla bean]

Why is that in nursing if your a "new" nurse that your suppose to keep quiet until you've got some time under your belt...it's so stupid in my opinion. If you feel something isn't right speak up, it's the "older" staff that need to not be so stuffy and get butt hurt if someone has an opinion about something.

javadown2, you are, of course, free to speak up about anything at any time. My thoughts for the OP were meant as food for thought and general thoughts on how to handle her specific situation and similar situations.

My personal thoughts are that as a new nurse, new employee, new staff in a new unit, etc., it is usually wise to reserve judgement about unit practices, individuals, and group dynamics until you've been around for a while. Every facility and unit within that facility has its own "culture" and often times staff have a long (and sometimes complicated) history with each other. I've seen countless newbies (not just nurses) over the years inject themselves into situations that they don't fully understand and then suffer the fallout because of it. I even did it myself once early on in my healthcare career and it took nearly a year for the ripple effects of that situation to totally smooth over.

In the OP's case, I've seen students in similar sorts of situations that have spoken up and complained about staff actions or behaviors that have then in turn found *themselves* labeled as trouble makers or difficult. Said students were *never* hired at my facility afterwards, and because nursing can be a very small world, one even had difficulty at nearby facilities. I'm not saying that it's right or fair, but it does happen.

You and the OP are free to make your own decisions about how to handle any given situation and act in any way that you think is right. I've weighed in with my thoughts because the OP came here, to a public internet forum, and asked for them; take 'em or leave 'em.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

Well aren't you a special kind of ugly. Because it was my first post on the forum and I was introducing myself. Not sure why you'd jump in with a rude comment that had nothing to do with my question unless you just enjoy being miserable.

And aren't you a special kind of . . . something. Introducing yourself with a first post entitled "Unprofessional Nurse During Clinical" is not a good debut on a forum for nurses. But perhaps you enjoy being miserable, hence the extremely negative first post.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

Because life experience matters when we're talking about professional behavior. Students are CONSTANTLY thrown the "you're just a student, you don't understand" line on here. In terms of the medical knowledge, skills, etc - I agree, I'm just a student and there is a lot I don't understand. But in terms of human behavior and interactions, my almost 40 years of experience does matter.

Yep, your forty years of life experience does matter. (For the record, I've followed your posts, and most of the time it seems that you have your head screwed firmly on tight.) But it is also true that someone who has never worked as a nurse doesn't understand the responsibilities, the dark humor, the frustration with certain behaviors . . . .

We see a large number of posts from students who seem to believe that nurses are bottomless pools of compassion for everyone and anyone under the sun and who are outraged when that proves not to be true. "I'm pregnant and my coworkers don't do my work for me -- where's the compassion for ME?" or "My preceptor is mean to me; she won't eat lunch with me every single day -- where's the compassion for a new nurse?" "My nurse threw me under the bus just because I made a little med error -- don't nurses understand what it's like to be new?" (The "little" med error was ten times the ordered dose of insulin.) "I don't understand why nurses don't like students, when we're doing all of their work for them."

So when students are complaining about unprofessional behavior from a nurse, nurses lacking compassion, mean nurses, etc., many times the relevent piece of information is that the student has no actual nursing experience and just. doesn't. get. it.

In the original post, I didn't see complaining about the patient as unprofessional, but as human. However the loud voice, profanity and in the nurse's station perhaps WERE unprofessional. However, I don't see a good outcome for the student in "confronting" the nurse in question. She doesn't work there; she's just visiting. Therefore, "only a student." Hopefully the OP learns to choose her battles wisely, because before long she'll be a brand new nurse and she is certain to encounter some less-than-strictly-professional behaviors in her new colleagues. The difference between a new nurse who survives and thrives in her new job and one who is "fired for no good reason" is often whether or not those colleagues LIKE her. Perhaps that isn't fair, but it's true -- in most workplaces, not just in nursing.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

Why is that in nursing if your a "new" nurse that your suppose to keep quiet until you've got some time under your belt...it's so stupid in my opinion. If you feel something isn't right speak up, it's the "older" staff that need to not be so stuffy and get butt hurt if someone has an opinion about something.

WHOA! New employees (even a nurse with 35 years of experience moving to a new job) are wise to get the lay of the land before speaking up. If a colleague is about to administer ten times the ordered amount of insulin or digoxin, yes, speak up. But for someone being unprofessional in the nurses's station -- just stay out of it. If the established staff decides you're a pain in the patoot, you may not survive probation.

[ItsThatJenGirl, CNA]

Yep, your forty years of life experience does matter. (For the record, I've followed your posts, and most of the time it seems that you have your head screwed firmly on tight.) But it is also true that someone who has never worked as a nurse doesn't understand the responsibilities, the dark humor, the frustration with certain behaviors . . . .

We see a large number of posts from students who seem to believe that nurses are bottomless pools of compassion for everyone and anyone under the sun and who are outraged when that proves not to be true. "I'm pregnant and my coworkers don't do my work for me -- where's the compassion for ME?" or "My preceptor is mean to me; she won't eat lunch with me every single day -- where's the compassion for a new nurse?" "My nurse threw me under the bus just because I made a little med error -- don't nurses understand what it's like to be new?" (The "little" med error was ten times the ordered dose of insulin.) "I don't understand why nurses don't like students, when we're doing all of their work for them."

So when students are complaining about unprofessional behavior from a nurse, nurses lacking compassion, mean nurses, etc., many times the relevent piece of information is that the student has no actual nursing experience and just. doesn't. get. it.

In the original post, I didn't see complaining about the patient as unprofessional, but as human. However the loud voice, profanity and in the nurse's station perhaps WERE unprofessional. However, I don't see a good outcome for the student in "confronting" the nurse in question. She doesn't work there; she's just visiting. Therefore, "only a student." Hopefully the OP learns to choose her battles wisely, because before long she'll be a brand new nurse and she is certain to encounter some less-than-strictly-professional behaviors in her new colleagues. The difference between a new nurse who survives and thrives in her new job and one who is "fired for no good reason" is often whether or not those colleagues LIKE her. Perhaps that isn't fair, but it's true -- in most workplaces, not just in nursing.

I totally agree with you, and I've been around long enough to see the trends you mentioned. I mentioned in an earlier post that I experienced something similar, and my only issue is where it was said, not what was said. I'd never begrudge anyone that needs a good vent, especially in such a high stress job.

That said, I do sometimes grow weary of hearing that my opinion on things doesn't count.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

I totally agree with you, and I've been around long enough to see the trends you mentioned. I mentioned in an earlier post that I experienced something similar, and my only issue is where it was said, not what was said. I'd never begrudge anyone that needs a good vent, especially in such a high stress job.

That said, I do sometimes grow weary of hearing that my opinion on things doesn't count.

Well, yes, I grow weary of hearing that my opinion on parenting issues doesn't count. I have a step-child, not a child of my own. As a step-parent, I am involved enough to have an opinion, but the bio-parents are the ones whose opinions count. As a student nurse, you are involved enough to have an opinion, but you don't have the experience to know what it FEELS like to endure three twelve-hour shifts in a row of verbal abuse from the patient (or family) you're trying your best to help. Although I don't think I've read a whole bunch of threads where you expressed opinions on things you didn't know enough about. :)

[ItsThatJenGirl, CNA]

Well, yes, I grow weary of hearing that my opinion on parenting issues doesn't count. I have a step-child, not a child of my own. As a step-parent, I am involved enough to have an opinion, but the bio-parents are the ones whose opinions count. As a student nurse, you are involved enough to have an opinion, but you don't have the experience to know what it FEELS like to endure three twelve-hour shifts in a row of verbal abuse from the patient (or family) you're trying your best to help. Although I don't think I've read a whole bunch of threads where you expressed opinions on things you didn't know enough about. :)

Aww thanks! I try to be mindful of the fact that there's more that I don't know than stuff I do know.

[Leader25, ASN, BSN, RN]

Do you think it was right to go to teacher and complain? You expect respect but you do not care about a private conversation between two adults,you say you get the venting part,do you really? You have not walked even a mile in their shoes,so please for everyone's sake walk away ,mind your patients and your business.

[marly01]

I am in the same boat. I have almost all my prerequisites knocked out. I retired from the army after 25 years of service. I may not be a nurse either; however, when you go back to school as a non-traditional student you bring a sense of experience, professionalism, and maturity with you. I am also a student you and I have been successful at careers before going to a SON . I do not believe in arguments that do not solve anything. But during my last career I was also exposed to high levels of stress and I have also witnessed some horrible situations. Keep your head up and do what is right

[Nurse Magnolia, BSN, RN]

Do you think it was right to go to teacher and complain? You expect respect but you do not care about a private conversation between two adults,you say you get the venting part,do you really? You have not walked even a mile in their shoes,so please for everyone's sake walk away ,mind your patients and your business.

A PRIVATE CONVERSATION at the nurses desk where visitors, families and other support staff were around? Want a private conversation, go to the nurses lounge and have at it.

[Nurse Magnolia, BSN, RN]

And aren't you a special kind of . . . something. Introducing yourself with a first post entitled "Unprofessional Nurse During Clinical" is not a good debut on a forum for nurses. But perhaps you enjoy being miserable, hence the extremely negative first post.

With all due respect RubyVee, 5 years ago I was on this forum attempting to gain information about going back to school in nursing. I asked a few feeler questions about the profession and was absolutely bashed by you as being naïve for thinking that nursing would be a good career to go into.

You mocked my age, my interest and my heartfelt questions regarding whether I should go back or not. In fact, at that time you called me a Pollyanna. Now I'm miserable because I expect professionalism from nurses? Ok, then. It took me 5 more years to go back to school, in part, because of you and your negativity towards students. I remember thinking if this is how nurses are, count me out. I remember you from then. So you bashing me now? No worries. Been there, done that. And I've found out not all nurses thrive on smashing students souls to itty bitty bits. I changed my user name, but I remember who's advice I respect, and who's I do not. I get that some students come on here complaining about ridiculous things (from your post below). I Get it. I am not doing that. I also did not confront the nurse nor ever said that I would. I thought she should have taken her complaint to somewhere less PUBLIC. How that turned into me being 'negative' is beyond me.

As far as expecting professionalism from the people that I work with and thinking nurses are better than what I experienced, I make absolutely no apologies. Not one. I've asked nurses who are friends, instructors, ex nurses, nurse managers, CNA's...all about this situation and they were horrified to know that this happened at the nurses desk. I am so happy to know that at least in my neck of the woods it is unacceptable behavior. I will continue with professionalism, both at work and here on this board. I am doing GREAT in school despite your insistence that I would not, and I love every minute of my clinical experiences. I will not behave like that nurse at the nurses desk and I promise, when I AM a nurse, I will not spend my time on a message board attempting to bring others down. I DO keep my head down and I do my work....all of it...in a timely manner and I expect absolutely no concessions OR compassion from anyone. I expect that if I do my job well, that's what matters. I do believe in treating others how I'd like to be treated though. And I will continue to do that. I am sorry that you have been so jaded by students that you cannot see when someone is asking an honest question and do that also. I want no enemies here so let's just assume when I ask a question I don't want advice from you and I won't comment on your posts either.

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

A PRIVATE CONVERSATION at the nurses desk where visitors, families and other support staff were around? Want a private conversation, go to the nurses lounge and have at it.

I think in every profession there are chronic complainers. I also believe that there are people who chronically put others down to make themselves feel worthy.

In all my years of being a nurse I found these people everywhere and in every department. As a young nurse I would just leave conversations that were participating in this kind of behavior. As teacher I made sure that the incoming nurses knew this kind of behaviour is NOT okay and encourage them to practice nursing their way. As a supervisor and manager I did not tolerate this type of unprofessionalism in the nurses.

However...to say that the nurses you heard are not good nurses just isn't true. It is difficult to explain to students that as they gain more experience they too may have days that seeking the comeradare of a co-worker is, at times, therapeutic. Nurses develop coping mechanisms to shield us from the cruel realities of the medical world and the seedier side of humanity. Sometime making something seem less "human" helps in dealing with the stark realities.

Try not to judge these nurses too harshly. While it might not be the best side of nursing it doesn't mean they are bad nurses. I encourage ALL questions/thoughts/criticisms of student nurses I feel that these should go to your professor/instructor and not to the management of the facility. It is increasingly more difficult to find clinical facilities and schools/programs/instructors/students are guests. I am glad you went to school. Comments from complete strangers really shouldn't define your career journey.

All the best.