As someone who is about to complete medical school, and who went through nursing school for a BSN, the knowledge gap between the two is exponential. In light of recent arguments made by militant nurses who argue that the required nursing courses to complete an associates degree or BSN is just as good as medical school. First you take an A&P, 101 course on microbiology, a introductory 12 week course in "orgo/gen chem, Biochem" all combined superficially in 12 weeks, 12 week course in Pathophysiology 101.
Looking back those courses, they were very superficial at the amount of knowledge required to pass. Those science courses were no where near the complexity that medical schools dig into, where things get broken down into the mechanism of protein structures that allow them to function a certain way. With out understanding the complexities of the inner workings of what actually occur at the cellular level, you can't begin to understand what went wrong when the ALGORITHM they are trained to follow doesn't go according to plan. Then comes the nursing courses, and the "clinicals" that they do. The actual nursing courses were good enough to understand and complete NURSING tasks. They were not good enough to treat and effectively manage complex disease, but when I was a nursing student at that time I thought I knew just as much as a doctor, and I was dead wrong. The clinicals were a joke, you passed out meds,maybe gave a few injections, changed wet diapers on incontinent patients, and followed the orders given by the doctor.
I am all about advanced education, but there is NO DIFFERENCE in the fundamental knowledge between a RN VS BSN other than some "nursing research courses and fluff to get fancy titles like clinical nurse specialist, or infection control specialist" but the core principles are EXACTLY THE SAME. So when they claim they have a BSN not an associates in nursing, there is NO difference, and I dare you to find me a BSN who would say there is.
Something else that ticks me off I hear from nurses trying to be MD's is " I have 15+ years in the ICU, ER, or MED/SURG floor," that counts as more education like a residency. Good for you! But, when I worked as a nurses assistant for 5+ years I didn't claim to know or be equivalent to a RN just because I saw what they did, and helped them carry out orders. How would NURSES like it if LPN's claimed to be EQUIVALENT to RN's/BSN's? Probably wouldn't go well. I am not knocking down the profession of nursing, what I am annoyed with is NURSES/NP's claiming to be equivalent to MD's. You are not, you were trained in the NURSING SCOPE of practice.
I love nurses, yes I would trust a seasoned ICU nurse's opinion vs a Freshly minted MD out of med school in July as an Intern, but I guarantee that by the end of 3-4 months of intern year, his knowledge base will increase exponentially to surpass that of any ICU nurse due to his knowledge base gained from 8 years of education that doesn't stop during residency, and now applying it daily as a intern. So nurses I beg you to please just work within your scope as a nurse, and stop trying to claim equivalency through studies "propaganda" funded by the militant nurses association.
Specializes in Psychiatry, Community, Nurse Manager, hospice.
As someone who is about to complete medical school, and who went through nursing school for a BSN, the knowledge gap between the two is exponential. In light of recent arguments made by militant nurses who argue that the required nursing courses to complete an associates degree or BSN is just as good as medical school. First you take an A&P, 101 course on microbiology, a introductory 12 week course in "orgo/gen chem, Biochem" all combined superficially in 12 weeks, 12 week course in Pathophysiology 101.
Looking back those courses, they were very superficial at the amount of knowledge required to pass. Those science courses were no where near the complexity that medical schools dig into, where things get broken down into the mechanism of protein structures that allow them to function a certain way. With out understanding the complexities of the inner workings of what actually occur at the cellular level, you can't begin to understand what went wrong when the ALGORITHM they are trained to follow doesn't go according to plan. Then comes the nursing courses, and the "clinicals" that they do. The actual nursing courses were good enough to understand and complete NURSING tasks. They were not good enough to treat and effectively manage complex disease, but when I was a nursing student at that time I thought I knew just as much as a doctor, and I was dead wrong. The clinicals were a joke, you passed out meds,maybe gave a few injections, changed wet diapers on incontinent patients, and followed the orders given by the doctor.
I am all about advanced education, but there is NO DIFFERENCE in the fundamental knowledge between a RN VS BSN other than some "nursing research courses and fluff to get fancy titles like clinical nurse specialist, or infection control specialist" but the core principles are EXACTLY THE SAME. So when they claim they have a BSN not an associates in nursing, there is NO difference, and I dare you to find me a BSN who would say there is.
Something else that ticks me off I hear from nurses trying to be MD's is " I have 15+ years in the ICU, ER, or MED/SURG floor," that counts as more education like a residency. Good for you! But, when I worked as a nurses assistant for 5+ years I didn't claim to know or be equivalent to a RN just because I saw what they did, and helped them carry out orders. How would NURSES like it if LPN's claimed to be EQUIVALENT to RN's/BSN's? Probably wouldn't go well. I am not knocking down the profession of nursing, what I am annoyed with is NURSES/NP's claiming to be equivalent to MD's. You are not, you were trained in the NURSING SCOPE of practice.
I love nurses, yes I would trust a seasoned ICU nurse's opinion vs a Freshly minted MD out of med school in July as an Intern, but I guarantee that by the end of 3-4 months of intern year, his knowledge base will increase exponentially to surpass that of any ICU nurse due to his knowledge base gained from 8 years of education that doesn't stop during residency, and now applying it daily as a intern. So nurses I beg you to please just work within your scope as a nurse, and stop trying to claim equivalency through studies "propaganda" funded by the militant nurses association.
Hey, next time you pretend to be an almost graduated med student online, be sure you understand the word "exponential" cause I'm pretty sure a med student would.
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
I have noticed that it always seems to be the pre-med and med students who feel the need to come over here and puff their chests. They must have very fragile egos.
OTOH, the bonafide physicians seem to appreciate the importance of the nurse's role and the concept of collegiality. Like the honey badger, they don't give a ****, particularly about pissing matches and feeling the need to feel superior to an RN.
The only thing to feel satisfied about re: this post is the knowledge that their payback will be of their own making as a result of their character. We know his type is the minority, and that the only people in my experience who get an A-hole Pass are the really brilliant specialists who probably are incapable of winning the Congeniality Award. This guy won't be one of those, assuming he makes it through residency.
I didn't post it just to get a reaction. I seriously want to see the alternate viewpoint. Do nurses actually try to compare their 2-4 year (post-high school) training with the 11-15 year (post-high school) training of a doctor?
In a word, no. I don't even compare my 7 years of post-high school education to that. I only need to go to some of the physician level CME offerings at my facility to understand that.
I have noticed that it always seems to be the pre-med and med students who feel the need to come over here and puff their chests. They must have very fragile egos.
OTOH, the bonafide physicians seem to appreciate the importance of the nurse's role and the concept of collegiality. Like the honey badger, they don't give a ****, particularly about pissing matches and feeling the need to feel superior to an RN.
I remember one time when rounding with the physicians the I was trying to tell my point of view on the patient. The resident was countering my every point and seemed irritated that I was daring to speak at all. Finally the attending spoke and just said, "Blondy knows what she's talking about and knows this patient, do what she said she wants." The poor resident than had to come to me whimpering with his tail between his legs because he had no idea what it was I said I wanted, and therefore, what it was his attending said to do.
I worked at a call center that answered calls from patients, and we had to dispatch urgent messages to the doctor on call. 9/10 I was so nervous to call the residents when they were on call because they'd have the biggest attitudes like come on dude really..... The nicest doctors were the ones with their own practices not entirely on topic but it just goes to show what's going on here.
I have this doctor that I adore. He values input and guidance from nurses more than any of the others. Actually, nursing students as well. The first time I met him, I had had a patient who wished to be DNR, but didn't think to tell the doctor that. She told me that her family knew her wishes, and knowing she was full code, I asked if she made sure the hospital knew and she said no.
I grabbed my patient's nurse, and she said I needed to call and make the MD aware. Man I was scared. It was my first time doing it. I reheorificed my whole SBAR spiel. Anyway, he came up, clarified code status with the patient, and it was changed. He pulled me aside and commended my courage for even bringing it up. Let's face it - when it's not something you've ever talked about with a stranger before, it's an intimidating topic. Do you want us to continue your life? Or let you go? He valued that I stepped outside my comfort zone as a student to go down that road with the patient, and then him.
As a nurse, he's had the same level of respect always. Obviously it's gone way beyond code status now. But I always know if I call him and say, "hey, I really think this patient needs something...." I know he'll appreciate that I took the time to get in touch with him after thinking something important through.
This doctor also is quite gifted at what he does. A few of our doctors blow my mind, really. Today I got a patient from him with a treatment that related to a digestion, autodigestion, and endocrine issue. I continued the treatment, but was puzzled over how each was related. I did a very brief amount of research, and intend to do more over the weekend because my mind is captivated by the chemistry and patho of it.
OP, I think the delivery you have used for the message you wish to convey sucks. I do not agree that nurses feel they know as much in the depth that doctors do. Each and every one of us was intrigued today by this patient's course of treatment and not one single person I put my head together with questioned the order as though they thought it was ridiculous. We all know we don't have the level of education of a doctor.
What we also know is that sometimes doctors do rush things. Sometimes they seriously suck at writing orders. Sometimes they just forget. So if it's 0400 and I'm on my 5th shift in a row, I might realize my guy who had a critical mag yesterday doesn't have an order for a mag level today. You might hear me mutter "idiot" under my breath because come on - really? Why wouldn't you just stick mag in your q0600 labs at the same time you order replacement? Now I have to call the nighttime hospitalist, or put it in myself not knowing if you're going to flip your lid over something that, let's face it, nurses should be allowed to add to AM labs anyway.
It's not that we think we know patho or chem any better than you. Of course you know that better. It's that, as you say, our two or four year degrees qualify us to understand protocols and get good at knowing what to expect from you and our patients, and when you let the ball slip, we have to call you knowing it's going to be a hassle to you and us.
In the meantime, dazzle us. Teach us. Be patient with us if we DON'T understand your thought process. I absolutely LOVE learning the patho behind certain treatment decisions you might make, and you earn way more respect from me when you're willing to teach me why your thought process works. But explain when I say I'd like to learn more. Don't belittle me or make me out to be an idiot in front of a patient. You certainly wouldn't want me to do that to you or anyone else.
Anyway, I hope you are a troll taking this back to sniggering colleague. I also hope my honesty helps dispel these ridiculous stereotypes.
Specializes in Occ. Hlth, Education, ICU, Med-Surg.
I didn't post it just to get a reaction. I seriously want to see the alternate viewpoint. Do nurses actually try to compare their 2-4 year (post-high school) training with the 11-15 year (post-high school) training of a doctor?
You stated that they did....so where's the documentation to prove your accusations?
Stop trolling on this board....you've wasted my time and countless others with your unfounded accusations
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not entirely on topic but it just goes to show what's going on here.
musingmom
77 Posts
It is a tale
Told by an idiot,
full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
- Bill @ the Globe