Health Care is Not a Right

Nurses Activism

Published

Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.

Now that's out of the way...

Why is health care not a right?

It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.

What about those in need of health care?

We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.

If health care is a right, it's immoral.

A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.

What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?

The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...

When is health care a right then?

When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.

Who's responsible to take care of me then?

You are. Crazy idea right?

Are there exceptions?

Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.

I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.

And if their costs aren't going to be paid by insurance or if they are part of the 99.9 percent of the population that could never pay their potential costs by themselves, what then?

Well, if I'm honest that's a complex question. If one chooses to not get insurance, who's problem is that? As for not being able to afford it if there is no coverage, the avg house where I live in Ontario is going for half a million... I mean, really? Ontario needs to flip the bill for someone to have their kids ears pinned back, lol For the love of God.

Specializes in Psych, Corrections, Med-Surg, Ambulatory.
You bring up some interesting points. It's been very difficult for me being a Canadian libertarian... I grew up here, not much I can do but hope for change. I plan on taking my degree and leaving for the US as soon as I can to be honest.

As to your comments, my partner and I have always worked, so I too have been paying into the benefits that I receive. Also, we have always tried to not use the health care system as much as possible, and we do that through preventative measures. That is, my wife and I are both into bodybuilding and fitness, and maintain an impeccable diet... even when we were at our poorest (when we went bankrupt).

Now, in Canada, you will receive benefits, that doesn't mean that I don't think some of that is wrong. Not much I can do but leave, and trust me, I'm planning on it. I think the Canadian health care system is failing. Unless I'm wrong... and there haven't been job cuts? Are hospitals over funded? Pretty much no wait times for patients right? Here's the thing, Canada needs to change or we're gonna be in big trouble soon, that's for sure. We pride ourselves on a failing health care system, only look at the good, and ignore the trouble we're in.

I think the greater good is important, but here's the thing, many don't. I simply don't think it's right that we take the money of those who might not hold a similar view to perpetuate our own beliefs about life.

If you're coming to the States because the health care system is better, think again. It is now mandatory for US residents to buy healthcare insurance (thanks to Obamacare) but they have to buy it from private insurers. Health insurance is still employer-dependent but subsidized for low-income.

When I retire my (mandatory) monthly premiums are likely to run $600 - $1000/ month, and still have deductibles and copays. And yes, there are surgery and ER waiting times.

The Canadian system is not perfect but don't dismiss it out of hand. And no, I am most definitely not a socialist.

I actually agree with you, in theory. I believe we should work as hard as we choose to reap the benefits of that work. I believe we should choose to pay for the education we want, and then earn the rewards of a higher salary due to the intellectual gifts/hard work that we gained from that education.

I also choose to live in a society where we take care of those who literally, through no fault of their own, cannot work, pay their medical bills or function as productive members of society - due to illness, injury or congenital disability. Those who have learned to work the system...they are an unfortunate byproduct and will never be entirely weeded out. I freaking hate that.

I have worked my rear end off since I was 15. If I break my neck or have a massive stroke or MI tomorrow, I hope (actually I hope that one of you will put me out of my misery with Propofol, but barring that...) I hope that the society that I have chosen will be compassionate enough to care for me well until I die, or one of my RN friends euthanizes me - as opposed to throwing me into the street, which is what a die hard libertarian (again, in theory, not necessarily reality) might do.

I am not a socialist. Work hard, retire well. As the master Dave Ramsay says, "Live like no one else, so you can live like no one else."

That said, capitalist society and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Or, at least, they don't have to be.

Well, usually, one is paying for fire service in the municipality they reside. If a municipal fire service has to leave the city to help those outside the city, they are charged (as they should be). So what you're saying here isn't true. You generally speaking get the service you pay for.

Note, you are also opting (I assume) to pay... that's your right.

That's different then saying someone has a right to your money regardless if you desire to pay or not.

No, my point is that I am being forced to pay taxes for police and firefighting services I don't use (have never used), that other people do. I am not "opting to pay." If I don't pay my taxes, the municipality will eventually take my house from me. Money is being taken from me, against my will, to pay for police and firefighting services for others. According to you, that's immoral socialism. How is that different from universal healthcare again?

No, my point is that I am being forced to pay taxes for police and firefighting services I don't use (have never used), that other people do. I am not "opting to pay." If I don't pay my taxes, the municipality will eventually take my house from me. Money is being taken from me, against my will, to pay for police and firefighting services for others. According to you, that's immoral socialism. How is that different from universal healthcare again?

I assume you want access to those services? You'd be correct though, if you have no desire to have access to that service, so be it. That should be your right. Yes, it would be immoral for someone to take your money to benefit from services they're not paying for, and that you have no desire to pay for.

Yeah sorry, disagree with everything you said, even the part about the philosophy you studied. Socialism is just theft? That's a very ignorant and one dimensional view of a very broad topic involved in almost every modern society and discussed in highly regarded books in depth in great detail. If that's how you start your conversations "socialism is theft", be prepared to be disregarded instantly by anyone who actually knows anything about economics.

You can't put something as complex as healthcare in a one dimensional black and white little box of "Well whose gonna pay for it? If not you, it's THEFT!"

Healthcare is not just A right. It is THE right. Right to LIFE liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I don't believe you have the educational background to understand my argument for healthcare as really the only right a person has, otherwise I would gladly go into detail

Everyone complaining about who owes them what and how you paid for this and that and how you earned every dime all by yourself:

You have no concept of how interdependent you are. The reason you have anything is because you are part of a group, society, which has provided for you everything and every tool that you have had since you were conceived. The over individualistic perspective you have is purely an illusion by inability to perceive your complete dependancy on the whole.

I'm really amazed how many nurses don't think healthcare is a right. You have the right to heathcare... That's different than how it's payed for... As for just healthcare you have a right to it, and that is based on ethics, collectivism, responsibility.

This means the government can't say "okay, we are running out of doctors and there is way too many people in the nursing home. It's costing us way too much. So here's the new law:everyone above 60 is no longer permitted to recieve medical attention anymore. You don't have the right to it anyway, it's just a privilege, and you are wasting resources. "

Think of that precedent before you say "healthcare isn't a right". That's a very dangerous thing to throw around.

If you mean who is responsible who ultimately pays for the Healthcare, that's different, and it isn't black and white either. That comes down to management which takes many factors in to account in order to create the best outcomes

Well, universal health care in Ontario where I am isn't technically speaking "universal"... citizenship is a requirement. Otherwise you'll get billed after service. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one? (that's not rhetorical).

Well, usually, one is paying for fire service in the municipality they reside. If a municipal fire service has to leave the city to help those outside the city, they are charged (as they should be). So what you're saying here isn't true. You generally speaking get the service you pay for.

Note, you are also opting (I assume) to pay... that's your right.

That's different then saying someone has a right to your money regardless if you desire to pay or not.[/quote

You are a 34 yo Cdn. who doesn't understand the system you live under and benefit from.

Landed immigrant/permanent resident status entitles one to healthcare in Canada. Refugees are funded at the federal level and that's a whole other issue.

Yeah sorry, disagree with everything you said, even the part about the philosophy you studied. Socialism is just theft? That's a very ignorant and one dimensional view of a very broad topic involved in almost every modern society and discussed in highly regarded books in depth in great detail. If that's how you start your conversations "socialism is theft", be prepared to be disregarded instantly by anyone who actually knows anything about economics.

You can't put something as complex as healthcare in a one dimensional black and white little box of "Well whose gonna pay for it? If not you, it's THEFT!"

Healthcare is not just A right. It is THE right. Right to LIFE liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I don't believe you have the educational background to understand my argument for healthcare as really the only right a person has, otherwise I would gladly go into detail

I love debate so I'm down. :)

Yes I distilled socialism down to theft through taxation. Love for you to prove to me it's not.

Also, feel free to attempt to prove health care is a right, it'll be a first in this thread... so I'm all ears.

Well, universal health care in Ontario where I am isn't technically speaking "universal"... citizenship is a requirement. Otherwise you'll get billed after service. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one? (that's not rhetorical).

Well, usually, one is paying for fire service in the municipality they reside. If a municipal fire service has to leave the city to help those outside the city, they are charged (as they should be). So what you're saying here isn't true. You generally speaking get the service you pay for.

Note, you are also opting (I assume) to pay... that's your right.

That's different then saying someone has a right to your money regardless if you desire to pay or not.[/quote

You are a 34 yo Cdn. who doesn't understand the system you live under and benefit from.

Landed immigrant/permanent resident status entitles one to healthcare in Canada. Refugees are funded at the federal level and that's a whole other issue.

I wasn't making any claims, it actually was a question... hence the question mark. lol

Specializes in LTC, Rehab.

You're entitled to your opinions, but I think healthcare SHOULD be a right, universally, whether it IS a right or not. It IS in most industrialzed countries. And although we don't like them - but I differ in that I actually think about what they are USED for, not simply whether I'm taxed or not, or how much - but I don't exactly view taxes as 'theft'.

I love debate so I'm down. :)

Yes I distilled socialism down to theft through taxation. Love for you to prove to me it's not.

Also, feel free to attempt to prove health care is a right, it'll be a first in this thread... so I'm all ears.

We're talking about philosophical positions here, not objective truths -- no one can "prove" to you that health care is a right, or taxation isn't theft, since you don't believe it. Just as you can't convince us that your views are correct.

You're entitled to your opinions, but I think healthcare SHOULD be a right, universally, whether it IS a right or not. It IS in most industrialzed countries. And although we don't like them - but I differ in that I actually think about what they are USED for, not simply whether I'm taxed or not, or how much - but I don't exactly view taxes as 'theft'.

I view taxation as theft when it's for services one does not desire to have, nor benefit from. What someone pays in taxes, one needs in services.

I get what you're saying, and guess I just disagree is all.

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