Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.
Now that's out of the way...
Why is health care not a right?
It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.
If health care is a right, it's immoral.
A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.
I view taxation as theft when it's for services one does not desire to have, nor benefit from. What someone pays in taxes, one needs in services.
I get what you're saying, and guess I just disagree is all.
The thing is, many of us disagree on a lot of specific things money is spent on, but it's difficult to have a modern society without taxing people to pay for roads, schools, military, and many other things.
We're talking about philosophical positions here, not objective truths -- no one can "prove" to you that health care is a right, or taxation isn't theft, since you don't believe it. Just as you can't convince us that your views are correct.
Respectfully, this is actually incorrect. If one makes a truth claim, one has the burden of proof. Stating "universal health care is a right" is a truth claim. You're correct that someone may choose to reject the claim, but that doesn't alter the truth of the claim.
The thing is, many of us disagree on a lot of specific things money is spent on, but it's difficult to have a modern society without taxing people to pay for roads, schools, military, and many other things.
I have no problem with that, because I benefit from those things, schools, roads, etc. What do I benefit from Jane getting a hit replacement?
I stated earlier, I have a friend who is wealthy enough to pay for all the privatized health care he wants for two lifetimes. Why can't he opt out of taxation in regards to health care?
I have no problem with that, because I benefit from those things, schools, roads, etc. What do I benefit from Jane getting a hit replacement?
I stated earlier, I have a friend who is wealthy enough to pay for all the privatized health care he wants for two lifetimes. Why can't he opt out of taxation in regards to health care?
I can't answer re: why your friend can't opt out (this must be in another country where they have national health?). But as for how you benefit from Jane getting a hip replacement - well, it might be Jane this time, and it might be you another time. If everyone's chipping in, and we all get healthcare (I mean 'we' in a country where it's nationalized), people don't go bankrupt because they can't pay their medical bills.
I could say way more, but as you said, we disagree. Good luck to ya in Canada.
I can't answer re: why your friend can't opt out (this must be in another country where they have national health?). But as for how you benefit from Jane getting a hip replacement - well, it might be Jane this time, and it might be you another time. If everyone's chipping in, and we all get healthcare (I mean 'we' in a country where it's nationalized), people don't go bankrupt because they can't pay their medical bills.
I could say way more, but as you said, we disagree. Good luck to ya in Canada.
I think we both know the answer though, he can't opt out because others are dependant on using his money to pay for their services.
Specializes in UR/PA, Hematology/Oncology, Med Surg, Psych.
I have no problem with that, because I benefit from those things, schools, roads, etc. What do I benefit from Jane getting a hit replacement?
I stated earlier, I have a friend who is wealthy enough to pay for all the privatized health care he wants for two lifetimes. Why can't he opt out of taxation in regards to health care?
So you think if I don't children, my taxes shouldn't support the schools. Or if I never use the USPS, my taxes shouldn't pay for the service. I never drive on the roads in the northern part of my state, so I don't want my taxes paying for them, etc...and that is ridiculous. Universal healthcare covers all for the same services and is a safety net that every single Canadian has access to. Even if you aren't using the healthcare system, you are paying in taxes to have access to it. I think when/if you come to the United States and see how Capitalist healthcare actually affects you personally, you'll change your tune. Especially if one of your family members gets something like cancer and your employers policy doesn't cover the expenses.
Universal healthcare covers all for the same services and is a safety net that every single Canadian has access to. I think when/if you come to the United States and see how Capitalist healthcare actually affects you personally you'll change your tune.[/quote']
It's a safety net dependant on taking money from others to sustain.
As to your comments about privatized health care, that's a fair statement. I'm certainly curious.
Specializes in UR/PA, Hematology/Oncology, Med Surg, Psych.
It's a safety net dependant on taking money from others to sustain.
As to your comments about privatized health care, that's a fair statement. I'm certainly curious.
I think you'll be very shocked at the US healthcare system that is in place. I probably pay more money than most for my employers healthcare policy and it covers little. Yet my last employer had great insurance that was cheaper, but the company was strongly unethical. Should I stay and work for such a horrible place just so my family can have healthcare? That's a choice that many Americans face. You will have to select your job on the insurance offered, not on the actual job itself. And that is if you can get the employer to give the insurance information before taking the job, which in alot of places is really hard to obtain.
In the US you will find that the rich can pay out of pocket for most of their healthcare and the very poor can get Medicaid, but the regular tax paying, working poor or middle class American gets screwed.
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
That pretty much contradicts and undoes everything else you've said.
No, there are always exceptions. I'm just arguing it's not the rule.
...but doesn't the rule become the exception? A simple infected toe can progress to the point that a patient dies. So do we wait until the patient can no longer work, is at death's door, and is completely helpless before we intervene? From a practical standpoint, that sounds like a very expensive way to deal with a problem.
I think you'll be very shocked at the US healthcare system that is in place. I probably pay more money than most for my employers healthcare policy and it covers little. Yet my last employer had great insurance that was cheaper, but the company was strongly unethical. Should I stay and work for such a horrible place just so my family can have healthcare? That's a choice that many Americans face. You will have to select your job on the insurance offered, not on the actual job itself. And that is if you can get the employer to give the insurance information before taking the job, which in alot of places is really hard to obtain.
In the US you will find that the rich can pay out of pocket for most of their healthcare and the very poor can get Medicaid, but the regular tax paying, working poor or middle class American gets screwed.
May I ask, do you find the pay to be better though? The taxation has to be less. In Canada, you can be taxed in Ontario almost 50%.
djh123
1,101 Posts
The thing is, many of us disagree on a lot of specific things money is spent on, but it's difficult to have a modern society without taxing people to pay for roads, schools, military, and many other things.