Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.
Now that's out of the way...
Why is health care not a right?
It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.
If health care is a right, it's immoral.
A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.
Specializes in Psych, Corrections, Med-Surg, Ambulatory.
I understand what you're saying, and of course I wouldn't wish medical problems on anyone! I truly feel socialized health care is wrong though... so I suppose it's a complicated issue. Maybe a true free market health care system would drive costs down to make health care more affordable?
In a completely free market system you would have to be willing to deny services to anyone who couldn't pay. Most of us (even a die-hard capitalist like me) can't stomach that idea. In fact this is one of the reasons for the high cost of healthcare in the US. The bills are inflated to cover the costs of the indigent patients that no one expects to get a dime from. In Canada, the bills don't need to be inflated because every bill is collectible. The government in Canada actually negotiates pharmaceutical prices so Canadians can't be gouged. Americans have no such advocacy and pay the highest prescription drug prices in the world. So in many ways the free market has not made things cheaper.
I don't think being unable to afford the full cost of insurance is really the same choosing not to buy insurance. And I agree that if the complexities of funding a healthcare system was only based on $3000 cosmetic surgeries then it's a fairly simple issue; just say if you can't afford it then you can't have it. But that's not issue, the vast majority of healthcare spending are highly variable costs for the purpose of reducing suffering and avoiding unnecessary death. So back to the question you avoided, what should happen when someone hasn't been able to buy insurance and is unlikely to ever have hundreds of thousands the treatment they need may cost, what should happen, how should the system work instead?
Well in Ontario they are paying for kids to have their ears pinned back. They also paid for my wifes aunt to have not 1, but 2 gastric bypasses after she refused to change her eating habits. Then after she didn't clean her skin flap properly, the Ontario government paid for the plastic surgery to remove it, because she knew once it got infected, they'd cover the cost. I mean, this is freaking nuts.
To answer your question, it's complicated. I don't wish anyone to have medical problems... but I also truly feel socialized health care is wrong. Don't know if I have an answer to solve the problem.
In a completely free market system you would have to be willing to deny services to anyone who couldn't pay. Most of us (even a die-hard capitalist like me) can't stomach that idea. In fact this is one of the reasons for the high cost of healthcare in the US. The bills are inflated to cover the costs of the indigent patients that no one expects to get a dime from. In Canada, the bills don't need to be inflated because every bill is collectible. The government in Canada actually negotiates pharmaceutical prices so Canadians can't be gouged. Americans have no such advocacy and pay the highest prescription drug prices in the world. So in many ways the free market has not made things cheaper.
You're right, I couldn't stomach turning someone away either, that's why billing after services rendered in necessary. Obviously some don't pay their bills, which sucks.
As I understand it though, the capitalist system of the US is also producing the most drug patents? If that's true, the Canadian system is riding on the benefits that the US system is generating. You know what I mean?
I start school in the morning, so have to hit the sack. Good talking to everyone! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!! We may not all agree, but I love dialoguing anyways. :)
It's not a right, because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
People have a fundamental right to receive a certain level of health care whether or not they can pay. It is tied to the ability to the ability to maintain ones life, or to overcome and change ones circumstances. I feel the same way about education. A person has the right to a fundamental education as it is necessary to allow people to change their circumstances and to pursue a better life.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for you access.
Your suggestion to shift the burden of health care costs to charitable organizations negates their function. That is like saying shift the cost of education to scholarship organizations, or the cost of scientific research to private grants.
If health care is a right, it's immoral. A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What you are calling immoral is not health care, but taxation. You don't like when other people get to use what you paid for if they did not contribute to the pot. Well that is exactly what you are doing when you use this site, paid for by someone else yet still free to you. Where is your pro membership? Oh wait you mean you use this site but won't pay $2.50 per month? Tetra is is a socialist. (on another note $2.50 is a good deal, I think i will sign up for that)
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services, should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't payed for, firefighting is volunteer, or payed for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
By your logic, then why should I pay taxes to extinguish your house fire? Oh wait are you in my area...then why would I pay for you to be extricated from your mangled vehicle? Why should I pay for your childrens' education when I have no children of my own? Why do we pay for the GPS satellites you guys use in Canada? The reason is because I also have access to these services should I need them.
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I payed for it, that's it.
Yes health care is a fundamental human right. The WHO constitution states,"The enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of health is one of the fundamental rights of every human being without distinction of race, religion, political belief, economic or social condition." Affordable medicine is on the UN's fundamental declaration of human rights.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Yes to an extent, but there will be times you will have to lean on somone else and will require aid. Life has a way of teaching this lesson when people least expect it. Sometimes everything you've known can be levelled...physically levelled...in an instant. It is my most sincere hope that you never experience that. However I will be there along with the other people who see suffering and are compelled to intervene.
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
Ah, such an altruist!
I really do appreciate your views, I think they are interesting. However you do have me genuinely wondering why you're becoming, of all things, a nurse. Do you have a genuine desire to alleviate human suffering? Is it for how it can benefit you? Do you like the shoes? What is it? Nursing is not about ourselves, but others. Some of my proudest work as a nurse has been as a volunteer. Only you know your true motives, but I do hope you'll enlighten us to that truth.
It's not a right, because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
People have a fundamental right to receive a certain level of health care whether or not they can pay. It is tied to the ability to the ability to maintain ones life, or to overcome and change ones circumstances. I feel the same way about education. A person has the right to a fundamental education as it is necessary to allow people to change their circumstances and to pursue a better life.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for you access.
Your suggestion to shift the burden of health care costs to charitable organizations negates their function. That is like saying shift the cost of education to scholarship organizations, or the cost of scientific research to private grants.
If health care is a right, it's immoral. A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What you are calling immoral is not health care, but taxation. You don't like when other people get to use what you paid for if they did not contribute to the pot. Well that is exactly what you are doing when you use this site, paid for by someone else yet still free to you. Where is your pro membership? Oh wait you mean you use this site but won't pay $2.50 per month? Tetra is is a socialist. (on another note $2.50 is a good deal, I think i will sign up for that)
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services, should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't payed for, firefighting is volunteer, or payed for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
By your logic, then why should I pay taxes to extinguish your house fire? Oh wait are you in my area...then why would I pay for you to be extricated from your mangled vehicle? Why should I pay for your childrens' education when I have no children of my own? Why do we pay for the GPS satellites you guys use in Canada? The reason is because I also have access to these services should I need them.
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I payed for it, that's it.
Yes health care is a fundamental human right. The WHO constitution states,"The enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of health is one of the fundamental rights of every human being without distinction of race, religion, political belief, economic or social condition." Affordable medicine is on the UN's fundamental declaration of human rights.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Yes to an extent, but there will be times you will have to lean on somone else and will require aid. Life has a way of teaching this lesson when people least expect it. Sometimes everything you've known can be levelled...physically levelled...in an instant. It is my most sincere hope that you never experience that. However I will be there along with the other people who see suffering and are compelled to intervene.
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
Ah, such an altruist!
I really do appreciate your views, I think they are interesting. However you do have me genuinely wondering why you're becoming, of all things, a nurse. Do you have a genuine desire to alleviate human suffering? Is it for how it can benefit you? Do you like the shoes? What is it? Nursing is not about ourselves, but others. Some of my proudest work as a nurse has been as a volunteer. Only you know your true motives, but I do hope you'll enlighten us to that truth.
What about people who work full-time jobs that are necessary but are still making minimum wage, while also taking care of a family? All of the people that make a big-time company run, but still get paid pennies despite working full time and being grown adults? Are these people supposed to not have children? If they get an education, leading to a nice salary, who is going to fill in their shoes?
And like one of the previous posters said, by your logic, if it's immoral to take money away from people who you don't want to help, then why should I pay taxes towards fighting fires that I didn't cause, or to paying cops to stop criminal activity in a neighborhood that's not my own?
Society isn't take-all, give-none. Or, at least, it shouldn't be. Everything that you have and enjoy now has come at the expense of your fellow-citizens and government. Your education, your nice roads, your restaurants that have passed sanitary tests... Everything.
And I'm not sure how you can say having to pay a bit more in taxes is immoral, but letting someone suffer is not? My husband and I don't have a lot of money now (we're both working on our college degrees) but I would gladly pay more money for strangers to help alleviate their suffering.
In Canada, almost everyone pays for health care. It is a shared expense that is paid on a sliding scale. Those who have more pay more. Some employers cover this expense, but not all. And some people who fall below a certain income level/certain populations don't have to pay at all (similar to Medicare/Medicaid). So, in essence, universal coverage doesn't necessitate "free" health care. Canadians pay for their health care. And without various insurance providers controlling prices and coverage, it is cheaper.
I firmly believe that access to health care and medicine is a human right. I don't think that when a person is sick or injured they should have to worry about whether or not they can afford treatment. In effect, this belief implies that those people coming from positions of financial privilege or jobs with health insurance are more entitled to health and wellness than those who are impoverished or out of work.
In the US, I pay for my insurance here even though I may never have to use it. I pay for my insurance because if I get sick or injured, I don't want to go into financial ruin paying medical expenses. From an insurers point of view, it's the healthy people who offset the costs of those who are sick. This is the same model that is used in Canada. But it is applied at a much larger level and thus creates a system where more people can be covered for a fraction of the price. Everyone shares the expense.
Before you attempt to make a judgment about a health care system, you should really be more informed about it. And, hopefully, once you are engaged in it you can see its benefits. If you try and regard health care less as a service and more as a means to achieving a stable and productive society, you might be able to appreciate it better.
Also, your argument about taxes doesn't make sense. You don't want to pay taxes that will be used towards health care but you are willing to pay taxes that are used to prevent/treat fires??
It's not a right, because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
People have a fundamental right to receive a certain level of health care whether or not they can pay. It is tied to the ability to the ability to maintain ones life, or to overcome and change ones circumstances. I feel the same way about education. A person has the right to a fundamental education as it is necessary to allow people to change their circumstances and to pursue a better life.
Yes you have a right to maintain your own life. Yes, you have a right to educate yourself. No, you do not have a right to my money. In order for something to be a fundamental right, it cannot be dependent upon the actions of another human being.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for you access.
Your suggestion to shift the burden of health care costs to charitable organizations negates their function. That is like saying shift the cost of education to scholarship organizations, or the cost of scientific research to private grants.
I guess it depends if you think it should be the function of charitable organizations to cover the costs of health care. It's certainly not the job of the state. This whole idea that people are so downtrodden that they have access to zero money, that the state needs to cover everything is nonsense.
If health care is a right, it's immoral. A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What you are calling immoral is not health care, but taxation. You don't like when other people get to use what you paid for if they did not contribute to the pot. Well that is exactly what you are doing when you use this site, paid for by someone else yet still free to you. Where is your pro membership? Oh wait you mean you use this site but won't pay $2.50 per month? Tetra is is a socialist. (on another note $2.50 is a good deal, I think i will sign up for that)
I think I stated that... a socialized health care system is immoral. This site really isn't a good example, since someone voluntarily set it up for use by other people. Not to mention they make money from it. I don't make money from Jane's hip replacement down the street.
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services, should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't payed for, firefighting is volunteer, or payed for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
By your logic, then why should I pay taxes to extinguish your house fire? Oh wait are you in my area...then why would I pay for you to be extricated from your mangled vehicle? Why should I pay for your childrens' education when I have no children of my own? Why do we pay for the GPS satellites you guys use in Canada? The reason is because I also have access to these services should I need them.
Well, in Ontario where I am from, you wouldn't pay for a fire service for my house. People who are outside the municipality get billed, as they should. However, your correct, I also like access to the fire service... but when it comes to health care, there are many who don't mind just paying for their own.
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I payed for it, that's it.
Yes health care is a fundamental human right. The WHO constitution states,"The enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of health is one of the fundamental rights of every human being without distinction of race, religion, political belief, economic or social condition." Affordable medicine is on the UN's fundamental declaration of human rights
Yes, the WHO states it's a right... and?
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Yes to an extent, but there will be times you will have to lean on somone else and will require aid. Life has a way of teaching this lesson when people least expect it. Sometimes everything you've known can be levelled...physically levelled...in an instant. It is my most sincere hope that you never experience that. However I will be there along with the other people who see suffering and are compelled to intervene.
Of course there are times like that. Having someone voluntarily be my crutch would be awesome, what I can't do is tell them it's my right to make them my crutch.
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
Ah, such an altruist.
I think we both know I don't believe in altruism.
I really do appreciate your views, I think they are interesting. However you do have me genuinely wondering why you're becoming, of all things, a nurse. Do you have a genuine desire to alleviate human suffering? Is it for how it can benefit you? Do you like the shoes? What is it? Nursing is not about ourselves, but others. Some of my proudest work as a nurse has been as a volunteer. Only you know your true motives, but I do hope you'll enlighten us to that truth.
I love helping people... always have, always will. :) There seems to be this view on here that I can't be a nurse unless I'm a socialist, at least when it comes to how I view health care. I find that odd.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I always enjoy respectful discourse. :)
May I ask, do you find the pay to be better though? The taxation has to be less. In Canada, you can be taxed in Ontario almost 50%.
I take home probably 75% of my check and buy my own insurance which is another 20% of my income so, monthly I'd say I'm paying 45% in taxes/insurance premiums. That premium payment doesn't actually include my heathcare costs either, I still pay out of pocket till I reach my deductible then they'll cover 80%. I'm paying several hundred dollars a month on top of my insurance premium for some medical treatments I had to have at the beginning of the year. I'm guessing with that I'm paying 25-30% on medical costs right now plus taxes, that equals 50%+ of my income going to taxes/medical costs. If I were to get insurance thru my husband's job, it'd cost 75% of his income! Yes, 75% and that's the lowest tier of insurance offered. After taxes he might bring a few dollars home out of his paycheck. For the highest tier insurance, he'd get nothing out of his paycheck and we'd owe his job a couple hundred dollars a month.
Like dream'n said many people have to pick jobs based on the insurance offered and not necessarily the job itself. Do I keep the well paying absolutely wonderful job I've had for over a decade that doesn't offer insurance or do I take a chance and get a lower paying job at another facility and hope they have good and affordable insurance? That's my dilemma every open enrollment period.. The heathcare/insurance situation here in the US needs some serious work. Personally, I'd definitely pay a little more in taxes to never have to worry about having insurance.
Everyone's entitled to their own opinions and people can call me a beading heart all they want but, I can't stand the idea of people needing healthcare and not being able to afford it. It ways on my heart. If part of my insurance premiums are going to help an 8 year old diabetic get her insulin then yeah, that's wonderful! If part of my taxes are going to help a disabled person get a new wheelchair, great! I don't see how someone can want to be a nurse and lack the empathy for someone that might need but, can't afford their heathcare costs. I absolutely believe that heathcare is a right!
Specializes in Psychiatry, Community, Nurse Manager, hospice.
Healthcare is a right, because life is a right and healthcare is essential to life. In other words, healthcare is a right under the broader right to life. Right to life trumps right to liberty. That is why you have to pay taxes for police and fire, because people have the right to survive fires and crimes even though you don't want to pay for them.
That's my argument for healthcare as a right.
The more interesting topic is whether someone who believes that healthcare is not a right should go into the nursing profession.
Such a person should not go into the nursing profession, because nursing will create a direct conflict with those personal values. As a nurse, you must treat healthcare as a right, whether you believe it to be so or not.
Therefore, OP, you should not enroll in nursing school, and instead find something that is more in line with your belief system.
I believe in healthcare as a right, but I also believe in personal responsibility. I don't mind helping and footing the bill for some, but when you willfully destroy your body thats on you.
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TriciaJ, RN
4,328 Posts
In a completely free market system you would have to be willing to deny services to anyone who couldn't pay. Most of us (even a die-hard capitalist like me) can't stomach that idea. In fact this is one of the reasons for the high cost of healthcare in the US. The bills are inflated to cover the costs of the indigent patients that no one expects to get a dime from. In Canada, the bills don't need to be inflated because every bill is collectible. The government in Canada actually negotiates pharmaceutical prices so Canadians can't be gouged. Americans have no such advocacy and pay the highest prescription drug prices in the world. So in many ways the free market has not made things cheaper.