Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for my entire life. I'm saying this to avoid any fallacious arguments stemming from status or authority.
Now that's out of the way...
Why is health care not a right?
It's not a right because it requires others to fund your health care costs. You do not have a right to the money of other people.
What about those in need of health care?
We all love helping people, and that's important. Which is why there are countless organizations, churches, synagogues, companies, online charitable organizations, and other opportunities for your access.
If health care is a right, it's immoral.
A socialist view of health care requires the theft of citizens money through taxation to fund your health care needs. Just because I need health care does not mean I can take money of others, even when done through governmental force.
What's the difference between access to things like fire services, and health care services? They're all services aren't they?
The difference is that citizens who pay for services should receive services. Taxation pays for fire services, people are therefore owed that service.Consider, outside of municipalities where services aren't paid for, firefighting is volunteer, or paid for out of pocket. At least that's how it works in Canada...
When is health care a right then?
When you pay for it, however, it's a contractual right. Not a human right. I'm owed the service because I paid for it, that's it.
Who's responsible to take care of me then?
You are. Crazy idea right?
Are there exceptions?
Obviously, those with zero capacity to care for themselves.
I suspect heading into a Canadian nursing program with my views will be an interesting experience.
Respectfully, this is actually incorrect. If one makes a truth claim, one has the burden of proof. Stating "universal health care is a right" is a truth claim. You're correct that someone may choose to reject the claim, but that doesn't alter the truth of the claim.
This is going off topic though.
Stating "healthcare is not a right" and "taxation is theft" are also "truth claims." Or is something automatically true because you believe it, but that's not true of anyone who disagrees with you?
I think you'll be very shocked at the US healthcare system that is in place. I probably pay more money than most for my employers healthcare policy and it covers little. Yet my last employer had great insurance that was cheaper, but the company was strongly unethical. Should I stay and work for such a horrible place just so my family can have healthcare? That's a choice that many Americans face. You will have to select your job on the insurance offered, not on the actual job itself. And that is if you can get the employer to give the insurance information before taking the job, which in alot of places is really hard to obtain.
In the US you will find that the rich can pay out of pocket for most of their healthcare and the very poor can get Medicaid, but the regular tax paying, working poor or middle class American gets screwed.
This is where I'm at too. My insurance is somewhat expensive for the healthcare coverage I receive, though I do know a lot of people pay even more for much less coverage. I also pay for separate policies for dental and vision as do most American's, if you want that coverage it's additional policies with more premiums and deductibles to pay as dental and vision aren't covered under the healthcare policy.
Yet some of the low income parents I work with have very comprehensive healthcare coverage through government provided insurance. I specify parents because in my state it's no longer free healthcare for all low income people and hasn't been for quite a few years. We are not the "welfare state" we used to be. Now if you are pregnant, blind or over 65 you qualify. Parents of children that qualify generally are able to get covered as well. The healthcare coverage is amazing for those that can get it. Full healthcare with little to no deductible that pays for pretty much any provider you need to see at any time, there's no messing around with pre-approvals and jumping through a red tape nightmare to get your health services covered. Need to see a dentist or get glasses? That's fully covered too. Heck, you can even go to a chiropractor, acupuncturist or even a faith healer and have it fully covered.
In my opinion a fair system would offer health, dental and vision to everybody through insurance that also provides equal coverage to everybody. This could be offered by private companies or a government agency not motivated by free market for pricing. Free market is a joke as it is, many states have only one or just a few insurance providers available to them. There is little to no competition so they can pretty much charge what they want and thanks to current law people are required to pay it if they can't get insurance through an employer.
While so called Obamacare is good in theory, the reality has been much less than the perfect world of full, affordable coverage through state and federal programs that was envisioned. There has to be a better way, but sadly until this country can get the competing political parties to work in the same book much less be on the same page it won't be solved anytime soon.
But he wants to be a NP as fast as possible! So he can move to the US.
SEems to have no problem using Canadian tax money to fund his education, health care, and income. He's got children, so his family will receive monthly cheques for child tax benefits. Unless he has a load of scholarships, he'll be using The federal and provincial student loan programmes.
But he wants to be a NP as fast as possible! So he can move to the US.
SEems to have no problem using Canadian tax money to fund his education, health care, and income. He's got children, so his family will receive monthly cheques for child tax benefits. Unless he has a load of scholarships, he'll be using The federal and provincial student loan programmes.
I'm going to be blunt. He's a user and a troll
When did I say I don't receive benefits? When did I say I don't pay into the Canadian system? You're hilarious, your whole argument is that if someone is Canadian, they can't critique the system they're in. What nonsense is this!?
Most of the rest of the industrialized world disagrees with you. Countries in the industrialized world (and some in the developing world) whose health policy views healthcare as a universal human right have superior outcomes to those where healthcare is viewed as a commodity.
This has been litigated - and supported by reliable evidence - many times over, both globally and on this website.
You have no inherent rights. The concept of "rights" on it's face, particularly in libertarianism, is failed dogma because nobody lives in a vacuum, not even the sociopath Ayn Rand. We all depend on other people to be able to exercise our "rights". It's called a social compact. All primate groups form pecking orders with rules of social behavior that are understood by the group members through nurture and practice. All groups are free to change the rules by consensus or organized use of force (warfare/coup) whenever it suits them or they are able. We appear to have the inherent ability to be creative, even rational, in problem solving.
What we can do, we should do, to strengthen the social bonds between us simply because a stronger and emotionally more stable group insures our survival and that of our progeny. Sick or disabled group members weaken the group and the society. Our options for dealing with these group members are many. Some societies choose to carry them; others to put them out on the ice.
Historically we seem to have a problem with protecting ourselves from being taken advantage of by those who survive by parasitizing the labor of others, possibly because we are generous by nature since it infers survivability. The biggest parasites of our resources are those who use various means to skim from our mutually produced wealth, and give nothing back. One that comes to mind is the "insurance" industry which once upon a time pooled the risk between ship owners (who were notorious themselves for profiting from chattel slavery) but now conspire to squeeze out whatever the "market" (us) can bear, which nowadays is not much and is getting less. Betting on the losses, illness or death of others, as "health care insurance" companies and their "investors" do, is evil and destructive to our mutual survival.
I think you will find nursing school a much more difficult proposition than philosophy.
Most of the rest of the industrialized world disagrees with you. Countries in the industrialized world (and some in the developing world) whose health policy views healthcare as a universal human right have superior outcomes to those where healthcare is viewed as a commodity.
This has been litigated - and supported by reliable evidence - many times over, both globally and on this website.
Fallacious argument, argumentum ad populum.
If you do have evidence health care is a right, please provide. :)
Stating "healthcare is not a right" and "taxation is theft" are also "truth claims." Or is something automatically true because you believe it, but that's not true of anyone who disagrees with you?
Correct, I am making a truth claim, and I thought my argument was clear.
It's as follows:
1) Fundamental human rights are not dependent on the actions of others.
2) Health care is dependent on the actions of others.
3) Therefore, health care is not a fundamental human right.
If you agree with the first two premises, the conclusion logically follows.
You have no inherent rights. The concept of "rights" on it's face, particularly in libertarianism, is failed dogma because nobody lives in a vacuum, not even the sociopath Ayn Rand. We all depend on other people to be able to exercise our "rights". It's called a social compact. All primate groups form pecking orders with rules of social behavior that are understood by the group members through nurture and practice. All groups are free to change the rules by consensus or organized use of force (warfare/coup) whenever it suits them or they are able. We appear to have the inherent ability to be creative, even rational, in problem solving.
What we can do, we should do, to strengthen the social bonds between us simply because a stronger and emotionally more stable group insures our survival and that of our progeny. Sick or disabled group members weaken the group and the society. Our options for dealing with these group members are many. Some societies choose to carry them; others to put them out on the ice.
Historically we seem to have a problem with protecting ourselves from being taken advantage of by those who survive by parasitizing the labor of others, possibly because we are generous by nature since it infers survivability. The biggest parasites of our resources are those who use various means to skim from our mutually produced wealth, and give nothing back. One that comes to mind is the "insurance" industry which once upon a time pooled the risk between ship owners (who were notorious themselves for profiting from chattel slavery) but now conspire to squeeze out whatever the "market" (us) can bear, which nowadays is not much and is getting less. Betting on the losses, illness or death of others, as "health care insurance" companies and their "investors" do, is evil and destructive to our mutual survival.
I think you will find nursing school a much more difficult proposition than philosophy.
I actually really like your response!! I'm not able to respond in full at the moment, but looking at the nature of rights as a whole and there existence, is an interesting take. I obviously wouldn't agree Ayn Rand was a sociopath though.
I don't see how someone can want to be a nurse and lack the empathy for someone that might need but, can't afford their heathcare costs. I absolutely believe that heathcare is a right!
So your argument is essentially:
1) All nurses are socialists.
2) You're not a socialist.
3) Therefore, why are you interested in nursing?
I don't lack empathy, I realize life can be super crappy, I get it.
Just because I don't agree with the conclusion though, since my life is crappy, I therefore have a right to your money... doesn't mean I don't have an interest in helping people, and doesn't mean I lack empathy.
I agree with the posters that those who are truly sick should not have to worry about getting the treatment that they need. BUT I always feel sick to my stomach when I see how much taxes are taken off my pay check. I also get sick to my stomach when I hear my cousin who has two young children refuse to work and to just live off of child tax credits, and other various forms of government programs. I don't work hard to pay for people like her to sit on her butt, sorry.
It also infuriates me when people abuse the health care system. There is a patient on one of the units I work on that wants to live in the hospital...and oh this person can walk perfectly fine. He/she just refuses to get out of bed. And has refused the past two long-term care beds offered to them. I don't pay for you to live in a hospital. Not sorry.
elkpark
14,633 Posts
Stating "healthcare is not a right" and "taxation is theft" are also "truth claims." Or is something automatically true because you believe it, but that's not true of anyone who disagrees with you?