Nurses being forced to go back to school

Susie2310 · Sep 25, 2014

I am not going to do an internet search I am perfectly schooled in statistical analysis and research studies. What I am saying a nurse with 35 years experience, unless she is in research (and one would hope she has already gained this skill), has little to NO need in statistical research analysis.
I fail to see how that improves her competence at the bedside that necessitates that nurse going several thousands in debt at the end of her career to critique...
I have been at this game a LONG TIME. I am cynical. I admit it. All my years behind administrative doors have taught me this has nothing whatsoever with patient care and the "improvement" of the seasoned bedside nurse. I believe that the BSN should become ENTRY mininum...but to force seasoned nurse back to school for statistical analysis? Uhm...no.
We will have to agree to disagree.

As I said in my posts, I believe good quality courses in statistics and nursing research are valuable for nurses. However, I do not believe nurses should be forced to return for a BSN, and I have never argued for this. So we are in agreement there. If nurses who have not taken courses in statistics and nursing research are motivated and choose to take a quality statistics course at a community college, or a quality course in research at a community college, I believe that is beneficial to anyone. I haven't said anyone should be forced to do anything.

I do believe that these courses can be useful for a nurse practicing at the bedside. An example is that when one is being told that "instead of doing things X way we will now do them Y way because the research says Y way produces the best outcomes," if one can use knowledge of statistical procedures and research procedures to challenge poor research (in an appropriate way) I see that as empowering nurses, and empowering our practice, even if we ultimately fail to be heard by decision makers.

jadelpn, LPN, EMT-B · Sep 25, 2014

True but that doesn't make it right...nor does it justify what the nurse with 30 years at the bedside is suddenly lacking that only an education online can improve that nurses practice.

If I got my BSN tomorrow, I would be working the same job, doing the same thing, receive a whopping 25 more cents an hour, and be at best 10 grand in the hole.

I could attempt to get tuition reimbursement. For those who can make more per hour with a BSN, there goes your raise.

Every RN took the same test and passed it. LPN programs in some states (like mine) require a fair number of hours of clinical skill settings. There can be a place for everyone.

Ah, but the management of your facility can then claim that THEY brought in 80% BSN's by 2020. WOO HOO!! Perhaps they will then take that bonus money and million dollar making CEO's can as well and pay off the nurse's student loans.....

And we can debate statistics until the cows come home and a nurse can come to any number of logical conclusions based on the same. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what conclusion a bedside nurse comes up with. One follows the policies and procedures of the facility. Even if the "latest and greatest" EBP is the newest way to assess skin integrity is while standing on one's head. But be sure to say please, thank you and most importantly endeavor to give the most excellent care. Because unless your patient is delighted, one can find themselves without a job.

Susie2310 · Sep 26, 2014

I wanted to mention that Florence Nightingale cared for wounded and dying soldiers during the Crimean war. Many of us are aware of her contributions. As well as being a nurse, she was a statistician who incorporated the practice of statistics in her work, and used statistics to support her nursing practice. She wrote a book that used statistics to show how conditions in the hospitals contributed to patient deaths. A simple internet search brought up information about her work as a nurse and her use of statistics in her work.

passionflower, BSN, MSN, RN · Sep 28, 2014

Parts of this discussion remind me of a conversation I once had with a co-worker when I told her I was returning to school RN to MSN option. Her reply was "why? what are they giving you for that". I was a little taken aback because I never planned to return for what they would give me but rather for what I could give myself. I feel like a more competent nurse when I address the patient and the doctors. For myself. I hope to one day become a more independent practitioner and I will use my training to address community issues and programs, but the main reason I returned to school was for me. Ultimately that should be the main reason for everyone.

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Sep 29, 2014

Wow! Funny and kooky! Energy fields, very sci fi! Sounds entertaining at the very least! Can honestly say I never heard of this version of nursing theory before. Did it talk about creative visualization too?
What nursing program are you going thru? Was this an online class?

I think they might have talked about creative visualization. I may very well have been in my happy place at the time--mentally checked out and working on the week's menu. They were very big on guided imagery though, which sounds like it might be similar. She'd always talk about us doing guided imageries w/ our pts...and I'm thinking "Yeah I work (did at the time) in a flipping LTACH. I had 20 minutes in 12 hours yesterday, which I used to eat lunch AND pump for the baby. The rest of the time was frantically trying to get stuff done--meds passed, wounds dressed, pt going septic, getting an admit, communicating critical labs to the docs, tubefeedings running dry, helping the aides mobilize, troubleshooting this vent b/c the RT is busy. Uh, there's not going to be any guided imagery happening in my shift!! Unless I'm visualizing myself on a beach with a fluffy towel and a fruity drink and a good book, with Jimmy Buffet serenading me in the background...in a last-ditch effort to prevent my head from exploding." :roflmao:

No, it wasn't an online class. It was at one of my state's universities; actually most of the classes were hybrid. We met every other week, and another class met on the other weeks. On each class's off-week there would be online work to do. Two classes--Nursing Informatics and Pathophysiology were 100% online. But it's a brick-and-mortar school, not all online like WGU

subee, MSN, CRNA · Sep 29, 2014

Any fool can tell you "Do it this way because real evidence says so" but I do not abide fools. Even now, I would have to read a study over several times to decide if it's relevant to anything or not. I had 3 credits of statistics and 3 credits of research in grad school and they taught me to be very critical towards the foolery that medicine, as well as nursing, toss around so casually (and someone actually believes it). Now, nursing theory, another discussion. Total waste of tuition money, as well as time. I do not believe that the large majority of the people could deconstruct a research study without courses in statistics and research. Expecially, so-called "medical" studies where someone is trying to convince me that their drug is better than what's already out there.

nurse4ever08 · Sep 29, 2014

Really do get the frustration, however, the upper hand is to employers in an over saturated market. Get the degree or be passed over. It is the current state of economics

passionflower, BSN, MSN, RN · Sep 30, 2014

Taking statistics right now. Was really afraid of this class but can already see the value it will offer.

brandy1017, ASN, RN · Oct 5, 2014

As I said in my posts, I believe good quality courses in statistics and nursing research are valuable for nurses. However, I do not believe nurses should be forced to return for a BSN, and I have never argued for this. So we are in agreement there. If nurses who have not taken courses in statistics and nursing research are motivated and choose to take a quality statistics course at a community college, or a quality course in research at a community college, I believe that is beneficial to anyone. I haven't said anyone should be forced to do anything.
I do believe that these courses can be useful for a nurse practicing at the bedside. An example is that when one is being told that "instead of doing things X way we will now do them Y way because the research says Y way produces the best outcomes," if one can use knowledge of statistical procedures and research procedures to challenge poor research (in an appropriate way) I see that as empowering nurses, and empowering our practice, even if we ultimately fail to be heard by decision makers.

If management felt stats was so important they could provide a course or CEU about it as they do for ACLS & BLS. The bedside nurse doesn't make real decisions about evidence based practice, that is what the educator is for. The shared governance committee may discuss such things but the nurses really have no power and in the end the decisions are made by management. Shared governance is more an illusion than reality, esp if something costs money!

brandy1017, ASN, RN · Oct 5, 2014

Nurses with 30 years of experience have had 30 YEARS to get their BSN. Just because you've managed to keep your job so far doesn't mean that you don't have to read the tea leaves. The prediction was out in the open. It was in every nursing journal. It was in your face. You just start taking one or two courses at a time and just get it done. And they make it so easy, anyone can do it!

Not everyone has a love affair with college. People have other priorities than school such as a family of their own they are caring and providing for. The only reason BSN is becoming an issue is because there is now a glut of nurses, but I doubt this will last.

I don't see why management isn't paying for a BSN if they are requiring it, just like they do for ACLS and BLS. If money were not an issue, I wouldn't have that much of a problem with it as long as they allowed staff time off to study and a reasonable work schedule. I heard supervisors were given the option of getting their MSN with at least one day off a week to study, but this is not offered to the working staff.

It is true that there are a lot of options and flexibility to get your RN to BSN so that is wonderful, but it still costs money and takes time. How many people have the extra money and time to do this? Also I see no reason to force older nurses to get a BSN when they may be near retirement. Why not grandfather them like they do for other workers such as pharmacists. You don't hear about hospitals requiring pharmacists with an MPH to become PharmD or be fired! They wouldn't dare treat them that way! Management doesn't really think of nurses as professionals and that is why they don't treat them like professionals, but instead like bad children that need to be ordered around!

AnnieOaklyRN, BSN, RN, EMT-P · Oct 12, 2014

The bottom line is it doesn't matter what anyone thinks, nursing is heading in the direction of BSN only, there is no doubt about it! As much as it sucks, especially for older nurses, if you want to keep your job you have to go back to school.

I don't understand why people look so down on education, yes paying lots of $$$$ to write many papers stinks, it takes a lot of time, time that you could spend doing more relaxing things, but it is what it is. You options are limited, go back to school or find a different career! Working at Walmart as a greeter sounds fun, no education needed, but it won't pay the bills!

There are options, its not NEARLY as excruciating as obtaining your original nursing degree was.... You can take one class at a time, pay as you go, take your time and actually enjoy gaining new knowledge. I am enrolled with another year or so to go, but my school has 8 week classes so you can squeeze as many in as you can handle during a semester. Think positive!

HPRN

edmia, BSN, RN · Oct 12, 2014

I think they might have talked about creative visualization. I may very well have been in my happy place at the time--mentally checked out and working on the week's menu. They were very big on guided imagery though, which sounds like it might be similar. She'd always talk about us doing guided imageries w/ our pts...and I'm thinking "Yeah I work (did at the time) in a flipping LTACH. I had 20 minutes in 12 hours yesterday, which I used to eat lunch AND pump for the baby. The rest of the time was frantically trying to get stuff done--meds passed, wounds dressed, pt going septic, getting an admit, communicating critical labs to the docs, tubefeedings running dry, helping the aides mobilize, troubleshooting this vent b/c the RT is busy. Uh, there's not going to be any guided imagery happening in my shift!!

No. She's talking about Jean Watson's Caring Theory. It's quite interesting on a philosophical level.

Through the years and through both professional and personal growth, I have come around to understand the need for nursing theory. I do not see the point in making those at the end of their career get a BSN and support an amnesty of sorts for those individuals. For those of us with maybe another 20 years of working life ahead of us, there is no option but to obtain a higher degree.

I do think ADNs should take advantage of the ADN-MSN bridge programs out there. Unless bedside nursing is your passion and that's where you want to stay.