Nurses being forced to go back to school

**mya612, BSN, RN** · Sep 23, 2014

EBP - can't leave home without it. How often do I see in these threads regarding ADN vs. BSn that the BSN teaches a person how to use EBP? Or think critically? I knew about EBP before I started nursing school. EBP is not something "coined" by the nursing profession. As a matter of fact, if anyone has ever seen any documentaries discussing contemporary medical issues (such as "The Business of Being Born") they would have heard the term EBP and they would have understood the importance of it in our post-industrialized westernized medical model becaue EBP is something that is NOT often practiced here in the US. If anything, it's health care CONSUMERS that have raised the awareness of the need for Evidence-Based Practice in health care, especially with regards to womens' health.

As far as critical thinking is concerned - I believe my years on this planet, being a wife and mother, having held a job since I was 15, and my other education has guarenteed that I think critically - though choosing nursing as a second career now has me re-thinking that. :down:

FlyingScot, RN · Sep 23, 2014

I'm curious to know why people don't seem to think that a nurse with an ADN or a diploma is capable of reading research studies and correctly extrapolating from them the information needed to apply EBP to their nursing. Is there some special micro-chip imbedded in the brains of only BSNs or higher degreed nurses that allows only them to cognitively get it? Do you honestly think understanding statistics and the research process cannot be learned from say...reading about it or even, gasp, doing it? And I'm going to say again. I firmly believe that we would better serve ourselves, our patients and our profession if, instead of pushing a BSN on very senior nurses, we instead require them to become certified in their area of expertise.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Sep 23, 2014

I'm curious to know why people don't seem to think that a nurse with an ADN or a diploma is capable of reading research studies and correctly extrapolating from them the information needed to apply EBP to their nursing. Is there some special micro-chip imbedded in the brains of only BSNs or higher degreed nurses that allows only them to cognitively get it? Do you honestly think understanding statistics and the research process cannot be learned from say...reading about it or even, gasp, doing it? And I'm going to say again. I firmly believe that we would better serve ourselves, our patients and our profession if, instead of pushing a BSN on very senior nurses, we instead require them to become certified in their area of expertise.

Amen brother.

NotMyProblem MSN, ASN, BSN, MSN, LPN, RN · Sep 23, 2014

I'm curious to know why people don't seem to think that a nurse with an ADN or a diploma is capable of reading research studies and correctly extrapolating from them the information needed to apply EBP to their nursing. Is there some special micro-chip imbedded in the brains of only BSNs or higher degreed nurses that allows only them to cognitively get it? Do you honestly think understanding statistics and the research process cannot be learned from say...reading about it or even, gasp, doing it? And I'm going to say again. I firmly believe that we would better serve ourselves, our patients and our profession if, instead of pushing a BSN on very senior nurses, we instead require them to become certified in their area of expertise.

What an excellent thought! I'm currently studying for my med/surg certification, but I don't think anyone has even entertained the certification as a very reasonable alternative for nurses nearing retirement! I will be planting this seed on the management grapevine at my job (even though we have no ultimatums for our LPNs or ASNs to date, 'yet').

Susie2310 · Sep 23, 2014

I'm curious to know why people don't seem to think that a nurse with an ADN or a diploma is capable of reading research studies and correctly extrapolating from them the information needed to apply EBP to their nursing. Is there some special micro-chip imbedded in the brains of only BSNs or higher degreed nurses that allows only them to cognitively get it? Do you honestly think understanding statistics and the research process cannot be learned from say...reading about it or even, gasp, doing it? And I'm going to say again. I firmly believe that we would better serve ourselves, our patients and our profession if, instead of pushing a BSN on very senior nurses, we instead require them to become certified in their area of expertise.

I do not support nurses being forced back to school for a BSN, but without knowledge of statistical procedures and nursing research it is not possible to correctly analyze the methodology and conclusions of a study, to determine how valid the study is. Just because someone with letters after their name says a study is important, or that a study's findings show X,Y, or Z, does not necessarily mean this is actually the case. With an ADN and no college level statistics and nursing research courses one can extrapolate information from the studies, but what is important is to be able to use statistical and research knowledge to determine if what is claimed in the studies is valid according to statistical and research procedure. That is why these courses are important. But it is not necessary to undertake a BSN to take these classes; college statistics can be taken at a community college - the four unit introductory statistics class I took was the most interesting and useful class I took in my entire college education, and has been useful for my entire life, not just nursing. A nursing research class comparable to the class offered in good BSN programs could also be offered in ADN programs (and I understand is part of some ADN programs today). Many ADN nurses already have prior degrees, and have taken statistics classes; a nursing research course could easily be offered at a community college, or as a CEU course.

I do think that encouraging nurses to become certified in their specialty is a good idea, as many nurses learn a lot about their specialty in the process of becoming certified, and maintaining the CEU requirement for certification renewal also encourages people to engage in ongoing learning. Certification cannot take the place of the knowledge obtained through courses such as college statistics and nursing research, but is very valuable in it's own right (I have obtained a specialty certification, and it had absolutely nothing to do with statistical knowledge/procedures or nursing research procedures).

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Sep 23, 2014

I do not support nurses being forced back to school for a BSN, but without knowledge of statistical procedures and nursing research it is not possible to correctly analyze the methodology and conclusions of a study, to determine how valid the study is. Just because someone with letters after their name says a study is important, or that a study's findings show X,Y, or Z, does not necessarily mean this is actually the case. With an ADN and no college level statistics and nursing research courses one can extrapolate information from the studies, but what is important is to be able to use statistical and research knowledge to determine if what is claimed in the studies is valid according to statistical and research procedure. That is why these courses are important. But it is not necessary to undertake a BSN to take these classes; college statistics can be taken at a community college - the four unit introductory statistics class I took was the most interesting and useful class I took in my entire college education, and has been useful for my entire life, not just nursing. A nursing research class comparable to the class offered in good BSN programs could also be offered in ADN programs (and I understand is part of some ADN programs today). Many ADN nurses already have prior degrees, and have taken statistics classes; a nursing research course could easily be offered at a community college, or as a CEU course.
I do think that encouraging nurses to become certified in their specialty is a good idea, as many nurses learn a lot about their specialty in the process of becoming certified, and maintaining the CEU requirement for certification renewal also encourages people to engage in ongoing learning. Certification cannot take the place of the knowledge obtained through courses such as college statistics and nursing research, but is very valuable in it's own right (I have obtained a specialty certification, and it had absolutely nothing to do with statistical knowledge/procedures or nursing research procedures).

It baffles me that people believe that a nurse with 30 years experience and an ASN/ADN cannot read statistic analysis and interpret results, that they cannot conduct research, or do not participate in evidence based nursing.

Maybe I should go for my masters to see if it will enlighten me.

Susie2310 · Sep 23, 2014

It baffles me that people believe that a nurse with 30 years experience and an ASN/ADN cannot read statistic analysis and interpret results, that they cannot conduct research, or do not participate in evidence based nursing.
Maybe I should go for my masters to see if it will enlighten me.

My point was not that an ADN nurse of 30 years or how ever many years cannot read a study and make intelligent observations, but that the coursework for introductory college statistics taught me about the process of using statistics to analyze information and to evaluate studies. There is an actual statistical process; it is not intuitive and has nothing to do with how many years of experience a nurse has. Of course an intelligent person may be able to make intelligent judgements about a study, but that is not the point I am arguing. The nursing research course I took taught me the procedures for evaluating research and information related to study design; again these things were not intuitive - there are actual specific statistical and research procedures that must be complied with in a research study for that study to be scientifically valid. Some people have already taken statistics and research courses in prior degrees. If one has never taken a college statistics or nursing research or other research course how does one know how to evaluate the use of statistics in research or of research procedures in studies according to established statistical and research/scientific principles? Again, I am not arguing that an intelligent person without any prior statistics coursework or research coursework cannot make intelligent determinations about a study, and I have never said that nurses with an ADN do not participate in evidence based practice.

vokaybo · Sep 24, 2014

Evidence shows that nurses with certifications have better patient outcomes. FYI: I have held a LPN, AASN, and BSN in nursing. I currently am studying my MSN. Life-long learning is important but does not have to be forced on people or gotten by advancing degrees. It is beneficial to have higher degrees in today's world for better job opportunities but it shouldn't be mandatory.

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I do think that encouraging nurses to become certified in their specialty is a good idea, as many nurses learn a lot about their specialty in the process of becoming certified, and maintaining the CEU requirement for certification renewal also encourages people to engage in ongoing learning. Certification cannot take the place of the knowledge obtained through courses such as college statistics and nursing research, but is very valuable in it's own right (I have obtained a specialty certification, and it had absolutely nothing to do with statistical knowledge/procedures or nursing research procedures).

brandy1017, ASN, RN · Sep 25, 2014

I do not support nurses being forced back to school for a BSN, but without knowledge of statistical procedures and nursing research it is not possible to correctly analyze the methodology and conclusions of a study, to determine how valid the study is. Just because someone with letters after their name says a study is important, or that a study's findings show X,Y, or Z, does not necessarily mean this is actually the case. With an ADN and no college level statistics and nursing research courses one can extrapolate information from the studies, but what is important is to be able to use statistical and research knowledge to determine if what is claimed in the studies is valid according to statistical and research procedure. That is why these courses are important. But it is not necessary to undertake a BSN to take these classes; college statistics can be taken at a community college - the four unit introductory statistics class I took was the most interesting and useful class I took in my entire college education, and has been useful for my entire life, not just nursing. A nursing research class comparable to the class offered in good BSN programs could also be offered in ADN programs (and I understand is part of some ADN programs today). Many ADN nurses already have prior degrees, and have taken statistics classes; a nursing research course could easily be offered at a community college, or as a CEU course.
I do think that encouraging nurses to become certified in their specialty is a good idea, as many nurses learn a lot about their specialty in the process of becoming certified, and maintaining the CEU requirement for certification renewal also encourages people to engage in ongoing learning. Certification cannot take the place of the knowledge obtained through courses such as college statistics and nursing research, but is very valuable in it's own right (I have obtained a specialty certification, and it had absolutely nothing to do with statistical knowledge/procedures or nursing research procedures).

The thing is honestly who has time to read research and stats when they are at work and frankly I don't spend my time off doing that either. I figure they have enough MA trained educators and committees and shared governance where research, literature and evidence based practice ideas are brought to the staff on a need to know basis. The educator and/or committees develop new protocols and share info which is then dispensed to the rest of the working staff.

I read medscape, do my CEU's and will attend a seminar if its of interest to me, but I don't plan to do research or QI projects. I don't sit on committees. It's not my thing. I have other interests besides nursing and don't want to spend my off time with just nurses. Life is too short! I'll leave this to others who have more enthusiasm for it and if they want they can get their MA and be educators, clinicians too! There is only so much room and jobs available in this field. I don't climb the clinical ladder because I feel like they twist you like a pretzel, constantly changing the rules just to maintain the ladder and if you don't jump thru their ever changing hoops they will demote you with a pay cut. My dignity and self respect is worth more than a petty raise that can be taken away at will!

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Sep 25, 2014

My point was not that an ADN nurse of 30 years or how ever many years cannot read a study and make intelligent observations, but that the coursework for introductory college statistics taught me about the process of using statistics to analyze information and to evaluate studies. There is an actual statistical process; it is not intuitive and has nothing to do with how many years of experience a nurse has. Of course an intelligent person may be able to make intelligent judgements about a study, but that is not the point I am arguing. The nursing research course I took taught me the procedures for evaluating research and information related to study design; again these things were not intuitive - there are actual specific statistical and research procedures that must be complied with in a research study for that study to be scientifically valid. Some people have already taken statistics and research courses in prior degrees. If one has never taken a college statistics or nursing research or other research course how does one know how to evaluate the use of statistics in research or of research procedures in studies according to established statistical and research/scientific principles? Again, I am not arguing that an intelligent person without any prior statistics coursework or research coursework cannot make intelligent determinations about a study, and I have never said that nurses with an ADN do not participate in evidence based practice.

But you just did.

but without knowledge of statistical procedures and nursing research it is not possible to correctly analyze the methodology and conclusions of a study, to determine how valid the study is
what is important is to be able to use statistical and research knowledge to determine if what is claimed in the studies is valid according to statistical and research procedure. That is why these courses are important.

and if "we" can't extrapolate the information how can we possibly follow evidenced based medicine.

I say that is complete and utter nonsense.

Susie2310 · Sep 25, 2014

But you just did.and if "we" can't extrapolate the information how can we possibly follow evidenced based medicine.
I say that is complete and utter nonsense.

Esme, do an internet search and tell me if I am correct that there are specific statistical procedures and research procedures that must be followed for a research study to be considered scientifically valid. Tell me how, without knowledge of statistical and research procedures one can evaluate a research study according to statistical and research principles? I did not say that an intelligent person cannot make intelligent determinations about a research study - you are inferring that that is what I said. I am saying that an intelligent person without knowledge of statistical procedures and research procedures will not be able to evaluate a research study according to established scientific statistical and research principles. For instance, when reading a study it is not hard to see sometimes that certain claims are unreasonable, simply by use of our common sense and intelligence. But as far as critiquing the study point by point, from type of study chosen, sampling procedures, methodology through the conclusion and statistical techniques used, without knowledge of established principles of research and statistical procedures please tell me how that can be done.

As far as following evidence based information, one example of our doing this is by following facility policy and procedures.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Sep 25, 2014

Esme, do an internet search and tell me if I am correct that there are specific statistical procedures and research procedures that must be followed for a research study to be considered scientifically valid. Tell me how, without knowledge of statistical and research procedures one can evaluate a research study according to statistical and research principles? I did not say that an intelligent person cannot make intelligent determinations about a research study - you are inferring that that is what I said. I am saying that an intelligent person without knowledge of statistical procedures and research procedures will not be able to evaluate a research study according to established scientific statistical and research principles. For instance, when reading a study it is not hard to see sometimes that certain claims are unreasonable, simply by use of our common sense and intelligence. But as far as critiquing the study point by point, from type of study chosen, sampling procedures, methodology through the conclusion and statistical techniques used, without knowledge of established principles of research and statistical procedures please tell me how that can be done.
As far as following evidence based information, one example of our doing this is by following facility policy and procedures.

I am not going to do an internet search I am perfectly schooled in statistical analysis and research studies. What I am saying a nurse with 35 years experience, unless she is in research (and one would hope she has already gained this skill), has little to NO need in statistical research analysis.

I fail to see how that improves her competence at the bedside that necessitates that nurse going several thousands in debt at the end of her career to critique...

the study point by point, from type of study chosen, sampling procedures, methodology through the conclusion and statistical techniques used, without knowledge of established principles of research and statistical procedures

I have been at this game a LONG TIME. I am cynical. I admit it. All my years behind administrative doors have taught me this has nothing whatsoever with patient care and the "improvement" of the seasoned bedside nurse. I believe that the BSN should become ENTRY mininum...but to force seasoned nurse back to school for statistical analysis? Uhm...no.

We will have to agree to disagree.